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All the arguments pro-union are fine – except none of that applies to public employee unions.
Public Unions should be ILLEGAL – in a democracy public workers have too much power, they get “two bites of the apple”- they have the power to elect the “management” and then they get too negotiate their salaries and pensions with these same people.
No one’s answering MM. My only stab at it would be fair labor laws, universal insurance & the like – so I guess, gov’t. Maybe the world has changed enough w/ instant communication that interest groups would carry enough clout on their own to ensure that laws aren’t violated. ILGWU is still a good union for most of its members but it doesn’t help immigrants in sweatshops nowadays which was what brought it into being years ago – only laws are working at all for those people.
“LABOR unions were organized because those doing the labor, and making the products, or providing the services that made management rich, were getting next to nothing, and were worked to death for their troubles.”
Sounds like some of us white collar paper pushers need unions, as that doesn’t sound too far off from what’s happening today. not everyone who works in the finance field makes tons of money.
It’s very interesting to see how people evaluate work and what its worth. While few of us would argue that a surgeon deserves the money he makes, carpenters, construction workers, factory workers, creative professionals are looked down on, yet the greatest amount of money goes to lawyers and wall streeters. the financial sector, and lawyers. I’m sorry But when there were trade schools, the kids who went to those were considered too stupid to go to college, and looked down on. I really respect the skills of a good carpenter or electrician more than I value those of a CEO. Tradesmen used to be respected for their years of training and skills. the whole urban myth of the overpaid teacher with a cushy, easy job- is exactly that. I see how hard my sister and her husband work- and how much they care about doing a good job. They also spent years in school studying to qualify. Think teachers don’t deserve their money? Then don’t complain when you can’t find good ones.
I think unions should stay – but defending patently absurd positions weakens the pro-union argument. You expose the union abuses just as you aim to do with white collar crime.
The point is , yes there is corruption and abuse in unions and often they are run more for benefit of leaders not the workers and so conclusion is unionism is bad. Yet when day after day we read about cheating, corruption, scamming, abuses by corporate america somehow don’t draw same conclusion – that corporations and their leaders are bad for america and should be eliminated.
Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at October 22, 2009 10:57 AM
Joe, I am not arguing with you about history of unions or whether corporate america is great and deserves high salary. All I am saying that in ALL my personal experience, today, unions have done more bad than good. My friend who has a business in a garment district just told me that one of his biggest clients just moved ALL of his production business to China. He employed about 100 people and was union and he was barely making ends meet and really wanted to keep his employees here but the Union contract was up and they came in and requested 15% increase in pay and dues. His own employees who know the business didn’t want the increase because they knew he had it tough and he tried soo hard to negotiate with the union and the union refused completely. So what did he do? He closed the shop, became a middle man and doubled his salary because his overhead was cut majorly. He tried to be the right guy and keep 100 AMERICANS employed and have just a bare minimum salary for himself and guess what, union fucked him so he fucked them and makes MORE money now for LESS work. Who ended up being the losers? the average shop worker that he employed.
All the arguments pro-union are fine – except none of that applies to public employee unions.
Public Unions should be ILLEGAL – in a democracy public workers have too much power, they get “two bites of the apple”- they have the power to elect the “management” and then they get too negotiate their salaries and pensions with these same people.
No one’s answering MM. My only stab at it would be fair labor laws, universal insurance & the like – so I guess, gov’t. Maybe the world has changed enough w/ instant communication that interest groups would carry enough clout on their own to ensure that laws aren’t violated. ILGWU is still a good union for most of its members but it doesn’t help immigrants in sweatshops nowadays which was what brought it into being years ago – only laws are working at all for those people.
“LABOR unions were organized because those doing the labor, and making the products, or providing the services that made management rich, were getting next to nothing, and were worked to death for their troubles.”
Sounds like some of us white collar paper pushers need unions, as that doesn’t sound too far off from what’s happening today. not everyone who works in the finance field makes tons of money.
It’s very interesting to see how people evaluate work and what its worth. While few of us would argue that a surgeon deserves the money he makes, carpenters, construction workers, factory workers, creative professionals are looked down on, yet the greatest amount of money goes to lawyers and wall streeters. the financial sector, and lawyers. I’m sorry But when there were trade schools, the kids who went to those were considered too stupid to go to college, and looked down on. I really respect the skills of a good carpenter or electrician more than I value those of a CEO. Tradesmen used to be respected for their years of training and skills. the whole urban myth of the overpaid teacher with a cushy, easy job- is exactly that. I see how hard my sister and her husband work- and how much they care about doing a good job. They also spent years in school studying to qualify. Think teachers don’t deserve their money? Then don’t complain when you can’t find good ones.
PB – Agreements reached in contracts w/ the City.
I think unions should stay – but defending patently absurd positions weakens the pro-union argument. You expose the union abuses just as you aim to do with white collar crime.
what do mayors have to do with ConEd employee rules?
The point is , yes there is corruption and abuse in unions and often they are run more for benefit of leaders not the workers and so conclusion is unionism is bad. Yet when day after day we read about cheating, corruption, scamming, abuses by corporate america somehow don’t draw same conclusion – that corporations and their leaders are bad for america and should be eliminated.
Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at October 22, 2009 10:57 AM
Joe, I am not arguing with you about history of unions or whether corporate america is great and deserves high salary. All I am saying that in ALL my personal experience, today, unions have done more bad than good. My friend who has a business in a garment district just told me that one of his biggest clients just moved ALL of his production business to China. He employed about 100 people and was union and he was barely making ends meet and really wanted to keep his employees here but the Union contract was up and they came in and requested 15% increase in pay and dues. His own employees who know the business didn’t want the increase because they knew he had it tough and he tried soo hard to negotiate with the union and the union refused completely. So what did he do? He closed the shop, became a middle man and doubled his salary because his overhead was cut majorly. He tried to be the right guy and keep 100 AMERICANS employed and have just a bare minimum salary for himself and guess what, union fucked him so he fucked them and makes MORE money now for LESS work. Who ended up being the losers? the average shop worker that he employed.
THE ANGELS OR PHILLIES WILL STOP THE YANKEES. DON’T COUNT YOUR CHICKENS BEFORE THE HATcH, fsrq, THEY HAVEN’T EVEN MADE IT TO THE SERIES YET.