LABOR unions were organized because those doing the labor, and making the products, or providing the services that made management rich, were getting next to nothing, and were worked to death for their troubles. We all know that. The ability to organize and strike was so powerful that the fatcats had no problem hiring thugs and killers to terrorize and kill union organizers and members. That’s how much power making money has on people.
Of course, 100 years down the road, it got skewed, and many, one could even say most, unions do more for themselves than for their membership. I would go so far as to say they are not necessary for most industries and trades. I would be the first to say they can be very exclusionary, racist, sexist, and most management is probably corrupt. They have too much power in local and national government, no doubt about it.
So what do we replace them with? Who protects a worker from being dismissed for whistle blowing? For having a baby, or from sexual discrimination? Who’s going to have someone’s back when the majority of hard working, honest people who are NOT sitting on their asses collecting for nothing, really need an advocate to make sure they are getting a living wage, access to health care, or a safe working environment? Not every company has an HR dept, and rare is the management that even cares about more than production and the bottom line. Who’s going to enforce anti-discrimination laws? Unions may have mucked much of this up by being greedy sods themselves, but there has to be someone who advocates for the workers. If it’s not a union, it ends up being the government, and we don’t want the gobment in our business, or even more bloated than that is. Who advocates for the gov’t worker?
In an ideal world, everyone would do what is right, would be fair and equitable, and be paid a living wage, and have the incentives to do better. I don’t think unions are gold plated examples of humanity at its best. But what do you replace them with?
“Of course don’t get me started on the obscene amount of money the head of the Red Cross makes”
Bxgrl – I did a review a few years back on the percentage of my dollar given being used for charitable work rather than overheads. It was quite illuminating and I changed some of my charities as a result. I think there’s a site where you can compare.
Cresent — I’m actually an “affiliate” member of the UFT, but happily a member of a different union.
I agree with you about the current “crop” of teachers and the fact that the UFT serves everyone EXCEPT the students and the community. My opinion is that teachers *are* underpaid… as a profession. BUT, I think that the majority of current teachers are far overpaid for what they bring to the table.
Wages for teachers are crap in comparison to most other “professions.” The teachers’ union has actually helped de-professionalize and commoditize the industry. We are not hiring the best teachers… we are hiring people who are willing to do the work for what we pay them in the conditions we provide. The unions don’t want competition or special recognition of superior performance… that would make the other members look bad. So, the result is paying everyone the same and providing the same benefits whether you are a star teacher that is making a difference or a total crap teacher that shouldn’t be allowed in a classroom.
I work in Higher Education (though not a professor), I fully support tenure of the professoriate for several reasons… one of which is “academic freedom” narrowly defined. And for other reasons too complicated to get into…
HOWEVER, I do NOT support tenure for school teachers. The freedoms that they require are MORE than protected by the fact that their unionized. And they do require freedoms. The ability to try new pedagogical methods, challenge the administrative structure of a school, etc.
Bad performance or the unwillingness to improve skills/knowledge should not be protected!! No other industry allows this. Even the carpenters union doesn’t allow this. If the work changes or evolves, the carpenter’s union requires its workers to step up to the challenge (of course there’s lots of other issue with these labor unions — not getting into that).
Teachers should be PAID MORE… but ONLY if they deserve it and have proven it. Underperforming (or non-performing) teachers should be given an ultimatum — step up or leave. Simple as that.
The UFT is a major obstacle. It crushes the spirit of enthusiastic, innovative new teachers… and allows crappy new teachers to get a permanent job. The net effect is a de-professionalized industry, underperforming schools, and suppressed wages for the excellent teachers (and inflated wages for the dead weight).
“the corruption in docks is gone on forever and not why they moved…they moved because of containers and trucking which is much easier in NJ (and where the corruption and unions still exist).”
Pete;
I think you are glossing over a little history. One of the prime reasons that container came into being was to put a stop to the widespread pilferage that I mentioned above. Once containers came into being, Brooklyn was no longer suitable and there was no space here to stack them. In effect, the ILA put themselves out of business in Brooklyn.
Moreover, while I’m sure that some corruption still goes on in Jersey, it is a far cry from what went on 20-30 years ago. Guys are no longer guaranteed a full salary on the basis of two conditions a) they were “in” with Anastasia and his successors and b) they went through the pretense of showing up at the hiring hall each morning.
Finally, I never buy moral relevance arguments. No one is defending corporate crooks here.
The Tishman ruling is the biggest RE news in NYC in probably a decade (since Pataki passed luxury decontrol) and yet nothing on Brownstoner????? – the ramifications are enormous in so many ways…..
And in other news – NO ONE IS STOPPING THE YANKEES THIS YEAR!
I had an interesting exchange with a UPS delivery guy a few years ago. This was in brooklyn just after I moved. The truck was on my corner and I was just getting home and there was a UPS tag on my door for a failed delivery.
I grabbed the tag and walked over to the truck and asked him for the package and he said he was on his “break” and I was disturbing him.
He finally got off his lazy ass and gave me the package and I said to him:
“So you’re really just as lazy as the postal workers now???”
“DH – Broken Bells is SUPER new – but what I heard yesrterday was amazing! really dug it
no – what’s the black keys?”
Thanks!! i’ll have to keep an eye out for their stuff, when it becomes available to us normal folk who aren’t industry insiders 😉
The Black Keys (and the solo work of their lead singer Dan Auerbach) are amazing!! Like very blues based rock. Their new album was actually produced by Danger mouse
“How has this become a “unions are okay bc CEOs suck more”
Unions suck
white collar CEOs suck
for entirely different reasons.”
DH- I’ve stated I don’t necessarily think unions are ok. I do object to the seeming elitism and stereotyping of some posters regarding blue collar and rank-and-file workers. (Dave I HATE Roger Toussaint!)
Kens- I was involved in community theater for a long time. Loved it, andI certainly don’t think the average carpenter or stagehand should be making that kind of money. But the positions of Head and Master are management and most people here seem to not want to recognize the difference. I worked for years in non=profits- the vast majority of people who work in nonprofits do it for love, not money. Of course don’t get me started on the obscene amount of money the head of the Red Cross makes.
DIBS… did you ever get a package again? 🙂
LABOR unions were organized because those doing the labor, and making the products, or providing the services that made management rich, were getting next to nothing, and were worked to death for their troubles. We all know that. The ability to organize and strike was so powerful that the fatcats had no problem hiring thugs and killers to terrorize and kill union organizers and members. That’s how much power making money has on people.
Of course, 100 years down the road, it got skewed, and many, one could even say most, unions do more for themselves than for their membership. I would go so far as to say they are not necessary for most industries and trades. I would be the first to say they can be very exclusionary, racist, sexist, and most management is probably corrupt. They have too much power in local and national government, no doubt about it.
So what do we replace them with? Who protects a worker from being dismissed for whistle blowing? For having a baby, or from sexual discrimination? Who’s going to have someone’s back when the majority of hard working, honest people who are NOT sitting on their asses collecting for nothing, really need an advocate to make sure they are getting a living wage, access to health care, or a safe working environment? Not every company has an HR dept, and rare is the management that even cares about more than production and the bottom line. Who’s going to enforce anti-discrimination laws? Unions may have mucked much of this up by being greedy sods themselves, but there has to be someone who advocates for the workers. If it’s not a union, it ends up being the government, and we don’t want the gobment in our business, or even more bloated than that is. Who advocates for the gov’t worker?
In an ideal world, everyone would do what is right, would be fair and equitable, and be paid a living wage, and have the incentives to do better. I don’t think unions are gold plated examples of humanity at its best. But what do you replace them with?
“Of course don’t get me started on the obscene amount of money the head of the Red Cross makes”
Bxgrl – I did a review a few years back on the percentage of my dollar given being used for charitable work rather than overheads. It was quite illuminating and I changed some of my charities as a result. I think there’s a site where you can compare.
Cresent — I’m actually an “affiliate” member of the UFT, but happily a member of a different union.
I agree with you about the current “crop” of teachers and the fact that the UFT serves everyone EXCEPT the students and the community. My opinion is that teachers *are* underpaid… as a profession. BUT, I think that the majority of current teachers are far overpaid for what they bring to the table.
Wages for teachers are crap in comparison to most other “professions.” The teachers’ union has actually helped de-professionalize and commoditize the industry. We are not hiring the best teachers… we are hiring people who are willing to do the work for what we pay them in the conditions we provide. The unions don’t want competition or special recognition of superior performance… that would make the other members look bad. So, the result is paying everyone the same and providing the same benefits whether you are a star teacher that is making a difference or a total crap teacher that shouldn’t be allowed in a classroom.
I work in Higher Education (though not a professor), I fully support tenure of the professoriate for several reasons… one of which is “academic freedom” narrowly defined. And for other reasons too complicated to get into…
HOWEVER, I do NOT support tenure for school teachers. The freedoms that they require are MORE than protected by the fact that their unionized. And they do require freedoms. The ability to try new pedagogical methods, challenge the administrative structure of a school, etc.
Bad performance or the unwillingness to improve skills/knowledge should not be protected!! No other industry allows this. Even the carpenters union doesn’t allow this. If the work changes or evolves, the carpenter’s union requires its workers to step up to the challenge (of course there’s lots of other issue with these labor unions — not getting into that).
Teachers should be PAID MORE… but ONLY if they deserve it and have proven it. Underperforming (or non-performing) teachers should be given an ultimatum — step up or leave. Simple as that.
The UFT is a major obstacle. It crushes the spirit of enthusiastic, innovative new teachers… and allows crappy new teachers to get a permanent job. The net effect is a de-professionalized industry, underperforming schools, and suppressed wages for the excellent teachers (and inflated wages for the dead weight).
“the corruption in docks is gone on forever and not why they moved…they moved because of containers and trucking which is much easier in NJ (and where the corruption and unions still exist).”
Pete;
I think you are glossing over a little history. One of the prime reasons that container came into being was to put a stop to the widespread pilferage that I mentioned above. Once containers came into being, Brooklyn was no longer suitable and there was no space here to stack them. In effect, the ILA put themselves out of business in Brooklyn.
Moreover, while I’m sure that some corruption still goes on in Jersey, it is a far cry from what went on 20-30 years ago. Guys are no longer guaranteed a full salary on the basis of two conditions a) they were “in” with Anastasia and his successors and b) they went through the pretense of showing up at the hiring hall each morning.
Finally, I never buy moral relevance arguments. No one is defending corporate crooks here.
The Tishman ruling is the biggest RE news in NYC in probably a decade (since Pataki passed luxury decontrol) and yet nothing on Brownstoner????? – the ramifications are enormous in so many ways…..
And in other news – NO ONE IS STOPPING THE YANKEES THIS YEAR!
I had an interesting exchange with a UPS delivery guy a few years ago. This was in brooklyn just after I moved. The truck was on my corner and I was just getting home and there was a UPS tag on my door for a failed delivery.
I grabbed the tag and walked over to the truck and asked him for the package and he said he was on his “break” and I was disturbing him.
He finally got off his lazy ass and gave me the package and I said to him:
“So you’re really just as lazy as the postal workers now???”
“DH – Broken Bells is SUPER new – but what I heard yesrterday was amazing! really dug it
no – what’s the black keys?”
Thanks!! i’ll have to keep an eye out for their stuff, when it becomes available to us normal folk who aren’t industry insiders 😉
The Black Keys (and the solo work of their lead singer Dan Auerbach) are amazing!! Like very blues based rock. Their new album was actually produced by Danger mouse
“How has this become a “unions are okay bc CEOs suck more”
Unions suck
white collar CEOs suck
for entirely different reasons.”
DH- I’ve stated I don’t necessarily think unions are ok. I do object to the seeming elitism and stereotyping of some posters regarding blue collar and rank-and-file workers. (Dave I HATE Roger Toussaint!)
Kens- I was involved in community theater for a long time. Loved it, andI certainly don’t think the average carpenter or stagehand should be making that kind of money. But the positions of Head and Master are management and most people here seem to not want to recognize the difference. I worked for years in non=profits- the vast majority of people who work in nonprofits do it for love, not money. Of course don’t get me started on the obscene amount of money the head of the Red Cross makes.