ditto- I’ll look for that. I remember it was an issue after 9-11 because the Salvation Army showed up the Red Cross when it came to delivering what was needed (I think 75% of every donated dollar) and in efficient management.
Believe me, I have no problem with reining in unions. Listening to some of the stories from my brother in law and sister I also don’t think they work for their own constituents. Kens- as I noted before, my father was driven out of business by the unions because his shop voted not to join. He told them he would go with whatever they wanted and they voted no. I have no love for them but like Montrose I am asking- what is the answer?
I’ll also say that even without unions, I think companies would still do anything, no mater how ruthless or detrimental to our economy, to make an ever greater and greater profit. If a worker in China is paid .50 and here they are paid $10.00, the company will go to China. Halliburton moved its offices to Dubai to avoid US taxes- considering they got so much money in government contracts and made a fortune, I think that sucks far more than a $500,000/yr salary for a master carpenter.
It’s also a big city thing, the breeding grounds for bad politics, bad laws and therefore unions. Most electricians/plumbers/carpenters etc outside large cities are not union and do fine.
That is because – too easy to move garment jobs abroad to 3rd world sweatshops…as Kens friend just did. Make more money that way. So difficult to unionize exportable labor effectively. Corps have no qualms about conditions workers endure or pay offshore. Give themselves big fat bonuses put workers here and paying taxes earning $20 an hour out of work and think they are geniuses and entitled to every million they make (yet are outraged that you would raise their taxes).
bxgrl — I couldn’t agree with you more. I think you have supported my statements above. You sister and her husband, hard working, try to be innovative, want to make a difference… Their wages pretty much suck, right? (relatively speaking) And they get little to no recognition otherwise for their efforts, right? (Especially not from their union who is preoccupied with “protecting tenure” and “raising wages”)
Will your sister and her husband burn out long before retirement? Probably. There is no incentive or stimulation… their industry is de-professionalized and the UFT has no intention of reversing that trend because it would sound the death knell of “equal” wages and probably tenure. The system is completely based on *seniority* and has nothing to do with ability, performance or leadership qualities.
I really respect the skills of a good carpenter or electrician more than I value those of a CEO.
Posted by: bxgrl at October 22, 2009 11:15 AM
bxgrl, some good carpenters and electricians make great money as we have seen with Carnegie Hall. You pay for people what you get out of it. If you hire an electrician and he screwes up, you pay say $30,000 to fix his biggest mistake (let’s say your whole wiring burns for some reason). If a stockbroker screws up, he/she can potentially lose your whole retirement portfolio which is work wayyyy more for an average joe. So you pay salaries that pertain to those things. Electrician doesn’t have to account and make decisions for 5,000 employees and CEOs due. You can easily go out and hire different electricians and carpenters. if a CEO of Google leaves tomorrow, how many people out there do you think can do his/her job effectively? We have market economics. Supply/Demand. Free market should rule salaries. Not unions or personal opinions of who should be making how much money. If teachers get paid soooo little that no one wants to do it, how come there are 1,000s on waiting lists to go to graduate education programs. My friend just finished columbia masters and is keeping her fingers crossed that she can land a position with NYC board of Ed. She is also on the waiting list in Maryland and will have to move to some remote location if they don’t call her in the next 3 months.
I know MANY a non-unionized plumber and electrician who make a very good salary, or who have their own business and do well – perhaps making more then me. Good for them. Someone appreciates their work, and feels that it is worth this much. Once again, I think that this is great.
I don’t detect that anyone in this thread is trying to demean blue-collar work. As I wrote to Denton, being against the excesses of unionism is not the same thing as being against blue-collar workers. Kens’ post above is another demonstration of that.
Likewise with teachers. I think Tybur6’s post is spot on. Excellent teachers should be paid very well. Poorly-performing teachers should not. Thanks to the UFT, that is not the current situation.
m4l….you better get over to the Forum. Someone has posted your ad campaign there!!!!!!
ditto- I’ll look for that. I remember it was an issue after 9-11 because the Salvation Army showed up the Red Cross when it came to delivering what was needed (I think 75% of every donated dollar) and in efficient management.
Believe me, I have no problem with reining in unions. Listening to some of the stories from my brother in law and sister I also don’t think they work for their own constituents. Kens- as I noted before, my father was driven out of business by the unions because his shop voted not to join. He told them he would go with whatever they wanted and they voted no. I have no love for them but like Montrose I am asking- what is the answer?
I’ll also say that even without unions, I think companies would still do anything, no mater how ruthless or detrimental to our economy, to make an ever greater and greater profit. If a worker in China is paid .50 and here they are paid $10.00, the company will go to China. Halliburton moved its offices to Dubai to avoid US taxes- considering they got so much money in government contracts and made a fortune, I think that sucks far more than a $500,000/yr salary for a master carpenter.
It’s also a big city thing, the breeding grounds for bad politics, bad laws and therefore unions. Most electricians/plumbers/carpenters etc outside large cities are not union and do fine.
That is because – too easy to move garment jobs abroad to 3rd world sweatshops…as Kens friend just did. Make more money that way. So difficult to unionize exportable labor effectively. Corps have no qualms about conditions workers endure or pay offshore. Give themselves big fat bonuses put workers here and paying taxes earning $20 an hour out of work and think they are geniuses and entitled to every million they make (yet are outraged that you would raise their taxes).
bxgrl — I couldn’t agree with you more. I think you have supported my statements above. You sister and her husband, hard working, try to be innovative, want to make a difference… Their wages pretty much suck, right? (relatively speaking) And they get little to no recognition otherwise for their efforts, right? (Especially not from their union who is preoccupied with “protecting tenure” and “raising wages”)
Will your sister and her husband burn out long before retirement? Probably. There is no incentive or stimulation… their industry is de-professionalized and the UFT has no intention of reversing that trend because it would sound the death knell of “equal” wages and probably tenure. The system is completely based on *seniority* and has nothing to do with ability, performance or leadership qualities.
DIBS – The Yankees will get to the series (do you really doubt that) and then crush the Phillies- Philly has no one in the pen.
I was at UNION hall. Does that count as paying my dues?
I really respect the skills of a good carpenter or electrician more than I value those of a CEO.
Posted by: bxgrl at October 22, 2009 11:15 AM
bxgrl, some good carpenters and electricians make great money as we have seen with Carnegie Hall. You pay for people what you get out of it. If you hire an electrician and he screwes up, you pay say $30,000 to fix his biggest mistake (let’s say your whole wiring burns for some reason). If a stockbroker screws up, he/she can potentially lose your whole retirement portfolio which is work wayyyy more for an average joe. So you pay salaries that pertain to those things. Electrician doesn’t have to account and make decisions for 5,000 employees and CEOs due. You can easily go out and hire different electricians and carpenters. if a CEO of Google leaves tomorrow, how many people out there do you think can do his/her job effectively? We have market economics. Supply/Demand. Free market should rule salaries. Not unions or personal opinions of who should be making how much money. If teachers get paid soooo little that no one wants to do it, how come there are 1,000s on waiting lists to go to graduate education programs. My friend just finished columbia masters and is keeping her fingers crossed that she can land a position with NYC board of Ed. She is also on the waiting list in Maryland and will have to move to some remote location if they don’t call her in the next 3 months.
Bxgrl;
I know MANY a non-unionized plumber and electrician who make a very good salary, or who have their own business and do well – perhaps making more then me. Good for them. Someone appreciates their work, and feels that it is worth this much. Once again, I think that this is great.
I don’t detect that anyone in this thread is trying to demean blue-collar work. As I wrote to Denton, being against the excesses of unionism is not the same thing as being against blue-collar workers. Kens’ post above is another demonstration of that.
Likewise with teachers. I think Tybur6’s post is spot on. Excellent teachers should be paid very well. Poorly-performing teachers should not. Thanks to the UFT, that is not the current situation.