Recommended Split System for Heat
We are doing a very close to gut reno in Crown Heights. 3 levels in a 19×37 townhouse with the bottom floor to be a rental. It’s been recommended by 2 hvac guys that we install a mini split system to use for both cooling and heat, to avoid having to fully install hot water radiator system as well (would have to get a new boiler). Reading through the site I can see that people don’t recommend relying just on a mini split for heat…. my question is why would the hvac guy and our contractor be recommended it??? It sounds like it should just be a back up option for heat. Did anyone have a split system and use it for heat this winter and survive? Should I be pushing for the hot water radiator system? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
janaeliuk
in Heating and Cooling 10 years ago
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21 replies
zag0r | 10 years ago
Jhpers! I admit that your insult has baited me successfully so here I am to comment again, against my better judgment. The manufacturers phase out obsolete models annually so have no fear, even the most obstinate pros cannot slow down the spread of the latest technology. Though who are these anti-technology pros? It remains a mystery. Last but not least, to reiterate the conclusion, it’s safe to say that yes it can be done if the system is designed properly. How so? Consult a pro!
jhpers | 10 years ago
zag0r is delusional. “homeowners and pros alike have weighed in with useful contributions” I did not read anything useful. “Most think a split system is not sufficient by itself and have given reasons” Give reasons? This is not an argument. We just want to know if anyone with he latest technology (latest mitsy hyperheat for example) was able to heat satisfactorily an average townhouse and what it took to do that. A couple of homeowners did chimed in but they did not state their system which means it is not the latest tech. The pros on the other hand are completely negative and defensive which means that, even if latest tech is adequate, pros of that sort will stop it to spread rapidly.
zag0r | 10 years ago
The whole point of this thread is to provide information as is the whole point of the forum. The whole point of my post is to point out that this information exchange may lead to misleading conclusions because there are unknown issues important to the topic. Still, homeowners and pros alike have weighed in with useful contributions. Most think a split system is not sufficient by itself and have given reasons. One person has stated that the pros are not familiar with the latest technology so their advice is moot. Another person is also questioning the advice of the pros because of self-interest. It’s a shame they did not elaborate on alternatives to floor registers because that would be a more useful contribution to the discussion.
nyc_sport | 10 years ago
As the debate here suggests, you likely “could” use the minisplit for heating and cooling. Due to a number of glitches in our renovation, our baseboard heating was not working until mid-January in a 110-year old loft, so we relied on our ac/heat pump as the sole source of heat until early January. That was before the worst of this winter’s cold, but it was still quite cold. The heat pump did fine (new windows/insulation, and 16 inch thick concrete walls). But hot air does not circulate as effectively as cold air, and there are a lot more hot/cold spots (ceiling fans help a lot, particularly when the ducts are 10+ feet above the floor), and very dry air. And, tenants are not used to paying for heat in NYC, and may not be happy with $500 electric bills in February, so you need to think about tradeoffs there as well.
jhpers | 10 years ago
There are several options for split ends-not only floor registers. The whole point of the discussion is whether one can dispense with steam/water heating and how it can be done. Apparently “pros” have nothing to contribute apart from attacking/defending but ok pros are out to survive.
zag0r | 10 years ago
Maplewoodguy, your post is one assumption after another and simply makes no sense to anyone who has even the least bit of experience in the construction industry or any of the related consulting professions. The HVAC field is far more complex than BTUs and the latest Hyper-Heat technology. Forget anything complex, all it takes is 10’+ ceilings to make you start thinking about supplementary heat because you may not have the space for floor registers in a townhouse. The other issue is that we don’t know anything about the OP’s project other than footprint size. Insulation, equipment, windows, exposure? Don’t know. It would be wise to add supplementary heat at the parlor floor at least but if the sytem was designed by a mechanical engineer, there’d be no need to second guess.
janaeliuk | 10 years ago
As a new homeowner, this site in invaluable and I appreciate both the pro’s and other homeowners who take the time to add to the conversation. I had assumed we would be installing radiators as well as a split system, that’s why I am surprised at the recommendations we had received. I wouldn’t ever want to skimp on something as important as the hvac – maybe they just were going into it wanting to give the most economical option? Going with both. Thanks again!
steam_man | 10 years ago
Interesting conversation. As a professional who has offered advice on this Forum since nearly its inception I tend to think of myself as a trustworthy source of expertise. I don’t think I am alone here amongst the other business owners who have spent much time answering questions pro bono. So what does it take for a homeowner to feel comfortable with the advice they are being given by other pros? My experience shows me that for the vast majority of people price trumps proper design. As a pro, I typically counsel good design and then lose the job. It’s ok. I’d rather install a great system that I’ll never get a call back on than install a crappy system cheaply just to make a couple of bucks. As I said, it’s always interesting to read what homeowners write here. Gives me a lot of insight.
Augustiner | 10 years ago
Most pro’s who install these systems are no energy efficiency experts even if they pretend to be. They are certainly not involved in the general building design, and once they’re done they’re OUT and it’s your problem. So the OP is right to ask independent opinions on this exquisite forum. Maybe you need to stick around longer than 1 post reply to get see that there is real expertise from local installers and customers to be found here. If no other aspects are considered, then primary motivation of the installer is to get a higher job volume. Each trade has their own interests, and if there is manager or devoted architect to connect the dots the decision process ends with the owner who writes the checks. The argument of leaky brownstones is very well more relevant to HVAC than other sytems. Ducted HVAC systems that not perfectly balanced create negative and positive air pressure in rooms, and it WILL pull air through the cracks causing even mold buildup in extreme cases.
MaplewoodGuy | 10 years ago
I am not sure I would believe the so called “experts” even if pros. First, the new splits can work to close full efficiency to below zero temps Second, the argument about swiss cheese brownstones work against other heating solutions as well. As long as the split can deliver the necessary btus then no problem. Third, it is past real world experience that matters which unfortunately those pros lack as the appropriate models are new. I would only trust the opinion of people who installed it. The pros here and elsewhere are stuck in their old ways.
Master Plvmber | 10 years ago
PEX is allowed by Code for heating systems, yes.
Augustiner | 10 years ago
Is PEX allowed by code for heating systems? I know for water it isn’t. I have HVAC for heat+cool, and although I have tight insulation and superb windows I’d still recommend to consider hydronic/baseboard for many reasons. Mainly because hydronic is a less complicated system to install correctly. Even if you go with HVAC I would highly recommend to install the piping for hydronic as a backup option while the walls are open. A few pipes are easily installed at low cost.
dorkofwindsor | 10 years ago
janaeliuk now you see why there are so many hydronic baseboard + separate havac systems. cumbersome and ugly but practical. it won’t win any architectural awards but you do get used to them. Also, new boiler with pex is cheaper than the old days of metal pipes.
dorkofwindsor | 10 years ago
@steam_man – lol
janaeliuk | 10 years ago
Thanks guys. You have saved me from sounding (even more) silly to our hvac guy in bringing up that idea!
steam_man | 10 years ago
dorkofwindsor want a job doing sales for us? We’ll have to do something about that name tho..
dorkofwindsor | 10 years ago
Your friend’s system sounds incorrectly designed and will affect unit life and efficiency and humidity of the house. If there is anything I have learned in getting an havc system, it is not to cheap out and have someone design it who knows what they are doing. Not a fly by nighter. It really is a system and it all works together. The house breathes, heats up and cools down – like a person…. one lung isn’t enough and four lungs would be too many. Units working too hard or not hard enough can actually lead to things like short unit lives, freeze ups, poor efficiency or worst case – mold. I’m sure i am leaving something out but your air quality should be well thought out. No matter how much i suggest this to people they can’t see past the budget – which isn’t small. People outside NYC are baffled how a proper HVAC system is a true luxury, but its true because there are no shortcuts in that trade. We live in the land of expensive so cheap and shortcuts come standard with every job. I’m even going to include MD’s in this assessment. but i digress…..
janaeliuk | 10 years ago
Good point about the insulation! Also, we are planning on opening up the parlor level and a ceiling unit seems like the only way to go in the front which I am trying to avoid for esthetic reasons. A friend of mine has the split on the top floor only for cooling and nothing on the parlor and seems to work well if not too into a/c and only really for crazy hot days. Thanks all for your input
steam_man | 10 years ago
Dorkofwindsor hit the nail on the head. I have talked many a client out of utilizing a heat pump only strategy when they didn’t plan on insulating the heck out of the house. To be honest, I don’t want it getting around that a system we designed and installed didn’t measure up.