Boiler seems empty, not sure why?
One day when in person meetings are practical….
cate
in Heating and Cooling 3 years and 11 months ago
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45 replies
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
right you are MP…thats a 802-24 not an 802-M-24….auto reset that cycles off after 5 attempts, not manual reset…so the auto feed is either not working, or set up to feed too slowly or too short a time
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
turn off the power, turn back on and see if any water is being fed into the boiler….and get a heating pro in sooner than later…you dont want to deal with this under the gun in heating season
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
The probe should be pulled and inspected and probably replaced, but before that, is it possible that that blue valve is closed?
As for the reset button, it wouldn’t do any good if there isn’t anyone around who understands what to do besides press it, and could lead in theory to the house freezing in winter, although probably not in a brownstone. An alternative, or perhaps an addition to the manual reset is something like a hydrolevel feeder that shows exactly how much water was fed into the boiler so you can check if the boiler is consuming water. But you do need to check, because constantly refilling the boiler will cause corrosion in the boiler and plumbing system.
Where did teh water go? Well it is a steam boiler, so perhaps it became steam?
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
Your leak is in the return piping. The Hartford Loop is installed too low for that boiler which is why it’s completely draining out beyond a level that could be seen in the sight glass. In other words, you basically have no Hartford Loop, or if you prefer, yours is ineffective.
Urbandad’s suggestion to check the LWCO probe is solid as part of any boiler service but that device is in place only to interrupt power to the burner circuit, so it’s just as likely the probe is fine and doing all you’re asking it to do which is only to turn on a red light and *maybe* stop the boiler from firing up.. That LWCO can’t be wired to feed water into your system since your feeder uses a mechanical switch and is, for some odd reason, a 120-volt device anyway. You’ve got what I call a Frankenboiler. It looks like it’s been altered and “fixed” by many hands at various skill levels over the years with no one taking the whole of the heating plant into consideration. [-brownstoner-1smG-8d6076bfd69c48b8a6492553e10b4860](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:rnUn:brownstoner1smg8d6076bfd69c48b8a6492553e10b486.jpg.jpg)
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
That seems to be true, I have not seen that type of feeder before, it looks like it probably needs weekly blowdowns.
If in fact there is a leak in the return piping, the boiler should be continuously filling with water, if it’s a slow leak, it should refill to the set level periodically. I’d also be interested to see what is on that service tag.
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
I guess the OP didn’t like my answer. Too snarky? Too know-it-all-y?
Don’t act surprised.
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
I liked your answer @MasterPlumber. It was honest and got to the point. I also liked the markup. I don’t know too much about plumbing so I can’t assess but as an answer I thought it was excellent.
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
Thank you, @janedrew.
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
I think it’s too vague. You might get more specific answers on one of the plumbing and heating forums.
stickerhappy | 3 years and 11 months ago
No, not at all MP. I actually appreciate the time you gave to your reply with detailed diagram. I can’t say I understood all the parts but I get your point about it being a frankenboiler and I’ll admit it’s had work done by a handful of non-heating specialists.
I will always appreciate the advice of a true expert.
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
I’m skeptical.
1) There’s no specific reason the leak would have to be in the return piping. A leak could be there, or it could be in the boiler, such as at the boiler drain, or there could be no leak at all.
2) If the water level is that low, the fill valve should operate to refill the boiler, or fill continuously as water leaks onto the floor somewhere. Why is the boiler not refilling?
3) Why is the hartford loop too low for the boiler? You wouldn’t want it above the water level in the boiler would you?
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
Ha! So, you were serious, @urbandad, about my answer being “too vague” and that @stickerhappy should check other forums.
Fantastic.
With statements like this:
“Why has nobody suggested pulling and cleaning the probe?”
You should probably consider not commenting when you don’t know. That’s what I do. I don’t comment when I don’t know.
To answer your questions:
1. The poster states the water is suddenly completely gone from the site glass. There is no evidence of a leak around the boiler or flue. The “specific” reason it would have to be in the return is that the Hartford Loop connection is too high, above the lower gauge valve. If you don’t know what’s wrong with that then go back to your “plumbing and heating forums” and ask there. Could the leak be in the boiler? Sure. But in the absence of a water mark or wet spot, we would do well to move on to a less obvious cause for the failure of containment.
2. “Why is the boiler not filling?” There could be several reasons and that’s why this post exists. My guess, because I’ve been doing this and only this for over 30 yea rs, is that the leak has existed for a long time and is coming to light now because there is an issue with the 120-volt feed circuit which, when working, has done a good job of masking the water loss without providing any feedback via a counter or meter.
3. See 1. The Hartford Loop is there and set at a specific height to keep water in the boiler in the inevitable event of a leak in the return piping. Failure to set it at the right height, in this case too low, results in the exact condition we see here.
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
@MP This is exactly what rankles me about this forum. No offense to anyone but I agree with you.
JohnHancock | 3 years and 11 months ago
Lots of one up man ship mansplaining
stickerhappy | 3 years and 11 months ago
Ok so what’s the first step solution for me? (Aside from getting a pro to take a look)
Repiping the Hartford Loop to function properly?
Then seeing if anything changes?
How easy is this fix given the current setup and piping?
Just to be clear this exact piping/boiler setup has worked for decades with no real issues.
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
Why is there a problem with the location of the hartford loop? Even if it is a little low, it’s wouldn’t cause this problem, it would probably just reduce the time you’d have to react if both low water cutoffs failed, but I doubt an extra inch would make much difference anyway, the top of the loop is usually about 2 inches below the fill level, so how much would you want to raise it anyway?
The first thing that should be checked is whether the water valve to the feeder is open. Was the boiler serviced this year? Maybe they didnt to open the valve and refill it. If it fills you could check for leaks.
If it doesn’t feel, I’d probably open the bypass valve and fill the boiler to see what happens. If water leaks from some visible point. Maybe wait a few days and see what happens. You probably need to service the feeder. Try blowing it down a few times and maybe it will unstick.
Now here’s where my non expert opinion comes in. If you hire a plumber like MP to service your frankenboiler, he will redo the piping and replace the components until it’s installed the way he like s it, a lot of work on a decades old boiler. But that will not be the cheapest way to handle it, nor will it necessarily perform any better, and it’s even possible, although not necessarily likely, that opening a valve would fix the issue.
stickerhappy | 3 years and 11 months ago
Well to be honest, Gateway handled the most recent servicing about a year ago. They did not try to upsell me on reconfiguring anything though they also didn’t point out any of the potential issues raised here, though I am grateful MP has taken the time to do that since obviously he can’t be present at every servicing.
TBH, that was also the first time it’s ever been serviced by a real company in probably 10 years. I will admit it’s usually not really get much attention unless a problem arises and that’s luckily been usually minor stuff in that period.
hkapstein | 3 years and 11 months ago
That’s fair. All I’m saying is I would try to troubleshoot the issue a bit more before calling a plumber. I do think MP is a good plumber by the way, I just like to give him a hard time, which I’m sure he appreciates. Why did his crew not identify all these expensive problems? Because the boiler was working.
If you post a question like this on the forum, and the answer is, call a plumber, what’s the point? But there’s no way he could know exactly what is going on from the information here. He knows the leak(if the water leaked out) is below the sight glass, which means it could either be in the return or in the boiler because water does not drain upwardly. With the top of the loop below the sight glass, it cannot be said which one. I assume you would have stated if you saw evidence of water on the floor. Can you confirm the water level was in the middle of the sight glass after the last blow down? Blowing down the boiler while the feeder is failed would also deplete the water.
@MP by the way, the reason I said to clean the probes on the LWCO was not because I don’t kn ow what I’m talking about, but because the OP actually stated that this probe controlled the feeder. But taking a look, that model is just a low water cutoff. I once had a licensed plumber install one of these below the boiler and it passed inspection. They’re required in NYC as a backup LWCO.
stickerhappy | 3 years and 11 months ago
When you say blowing down the boiler, that means just running the water until it runs clear?