Mitsubishi Heat Pumps
So I had a well know HVAC contractor come out and quote a 4-5 ton HVAC installation which would use Mitsubishi Compressors and Blowers. This “reputable” company quoted me $60k for a 4 blower short duct system. Now I KNOW the RETAIL prices of the units (outside compressor & 4 indoor evaporators) he quoted are just under $10k– and available to non-contractors– so I’ve decided to use my GC, and just go ahead and install these units myself. Yes, I understand a licensed HVAC guy will have to install the refrigerant and turn “up” the system or 8 void the warranty. Can anyone recommend a good duct work guy who can Consult (for a fee) and perhaps recommend a local company who can manufacture a custom sized flexible duct connector? Anyone interested in having yet another conversation about Heat Pumps in this area– Brooklyn? Thanks.
jjq
in Roofers 11 years and 6 months ago
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15 replies
jjq | 11 years and 6 months ago
“Don’t give too much for that whistle.” — Benjamin Franklin
ellenlourie | 11 years and 6 months ago
From heatinghelp.com post It’s the phenomenon that occurs when a frugal minded person sets out in an attempt to get a project done at the lowest possible price. A typical rule seems to be that this enterprising individual will purchase equipment from “god knows where” and have some guy doing side work install it. It works for a little bit, then it doesn’t work. Where is the guy who does side work? So after a myriad of guys down the street and people who know people, there it is! He’s calling in a Pro. Pro makes his assessment and quotes a price. Guy doubles over in pain and begrudgingly signs a contract. Pro makes the repairs and everything is good. Upon reflection Guy realizes he paid twice again what it would have cost to get a Pro in the first place and he still has cheap, low quality equipment. He balls his fists and grits his teeth in anguish. He was Dumb Like a Fox Hard to believe in this story is that Mr. Frugal even thinks about signing the Pro’s contract. Usually they get thrown out and Mr. Frugal goes back to searching Craig’s List. The Craigulites usually don’t show up. Or worse, they do.
steam_man | 11 years and 6 months ago
Jjq We would be happy to provide a proposal for your system. Please feel free to reach out if you are interested. The contact information is in the Brownstoner Directory (Heating and Cooling) under Molten Mechanical & Metal Works, Ltd.
jjq | 11 years and 6 months ago
Well, couple of points: Since there seems to be a variability within opinions on my quoted system…. I’ve decided to get another quote from the three contacts provided by Mitsubishi. I would get all three vendors to quote, but one firm wants $150 just to come out and provide a quote with a written spec. Now here’s an interesting observation, I made this morning which will figure into which heat pump we eventually buy: Yesterday, New Year’s Eve, I turned the steam heat OFF in our living room. I have a small free standing 1500 Watt, 5000 BTU electric heater which does a good job at keeping our 14×23 foot living room heated right at 72°. The room has 10 foot ceilings. Yes, the room is cold around the perimeter and under our 9 foot windows facing the street, but the “livable area” is comfortably warm. At 11¢/kWh– it costs aprox $1.30/day to run the heater 8 hours a day. Now here’s the interesting part: For the 30 or so calendar days it drops below 20° here in NYC, I’m thinking– “Why try and heat each zone of our multi-zone house with a top-end, high BTU air handler.” Read this as “expensive.” I may just go with a “medium” sized system and supplement the heat with a couple of $40 electric heaters. I’m still looking for suggestions on public spaces using heat pumps– any ideas? I guess life is a “comparative exercise.”
GreenThinker | 11 years and 6 months ago
Sorry, i meant to say that i think you should look into doing ductless wall mounted units.
steam_man | 11 years and 6 months ago
Green Thinker SEZ and PEAD indoor units ARE ducted. SMH this is why GCs shouldn’t be installing AC systems!! Hawaiismurf in answering your questions: 1- Flex duct sucks and should be used sparingly. Sheet metal ducts can be acoustically lined to minimize noise, have smoother airflow characteristics, can be better insulated and can be sealed to minimize/eliminate leakage. 2- A review of your premises would have to be done to know whether the MXZ-8B is the right unit for you. What most people don’t realize is that there are specific combinations that are meant to be used with each outdoor unit. A knowledgeable Mechanical contractor will know how to configure your equipment and how to place it for maximum effectiveness. I am not a big fan of the MXZ-8B as a singular unit for a couple of reasons, one is that most homes do not require 8 indoor units to be put on one outdoor unit. The second reason is putting all your eggs in one basket. There are other reasons I won’t get into. 3- City Multi is awesome. Awesome controls allowing you to utilize a ductless system as if it were ducted. Awesome electronics allowing self diagnosis, and self repair. Awesome design tools and maintenance tools. All around awesomeness. But be aware if you try to get anyone other than a certified installer to install City Multi they are going to wreck it. You need to know what you are doing for real. 4- For heating I would go with City Multi S or Y Series. Preferably Y Series. Be aware City Multi is NOT cheap. You get what you pay for.
GreenThinker | 11 years and 6 months ago
JJQ – In my case, I have a hydronic system for the winter and only use the mitsubishi’s for cooling in the summer. Its for a duplex apartment. 2 outdoor units in the back, 1 unit in the front. Reasoning for doing this; shorter lines and easier to run, vs running lines all the way to the front of the house. I see it as less holes that had go through my floor joists. I don’t have to cool or heat the whole house at once, so only 1 unit is running most of the time. But even if i had done a large unit, my bill wouldn’t be 3 times cheaper; whether you have 2 or 8 indoor units on 1 outdoor unit, it’s more or less the same efficiency. The most efficient set ups are 1 outdoor unit to 1 inside unit with a SEER rating of around 26\. But my main reasoning was that if anything happened to one unit, i wouldn’t have anything. If 1 unit out of 3 breaks down, i still have 4 working indoor units. Lets also say that something happens down the line thats unfixable. It’s a lot easier replacing 1 outdoor unit with a new one vs 1 large. I also think you should look into doing a ductless system. It’s a lot simpler then messing around with ducts.
hawaiismurf | 11 years and 6 months ago
Going through the same selection process myself at the moment, I’ve been really surprised at how expensive ductwork is. From looking at a lot of quotes, my sense is costs added up to 25% equipment, 25-40% labor, 15-25% ductwork, and then accessories, other HVAC elements such as exhausts, etc. For a straightforward duct run as described above, I would expect your quote to be more in the 35k range. Though it does seem there is a ‘floor’ price around 50k where the certified installers dont want to do multi-floor townhouse jobs below that. I’ll ask 2 tangentially related questions to the experts here – custom sheet metal ductwork vs cheaper flex – is the sheet metal intrinsically more efficient / have less leakage? can similar performance and energy efficiency be had with a less expensive, less custom solution? – would the Mitsubishi M-series MXZ-8B48 outdoor unit mentioned by JJQ work adequately for heating in NYC townhouses (assuming sizing is appropriate of course), or is the step up to City Multi S-Series warranted?
steam_man | 11 years and 6 months ago
As a certified installer for Mitsubishi, I am concerned when people take this approach. Not because I am losing out on a potential job, but because they are truly short selling themselves. My opinion is that Mitsubishi makes a great system, however it is not perfect and as all mechanical equipment is wont to do, they break down from time to time. The worst part is when they break down prematurely due to improper installation. I have been called out to projects many times to try and rectify what GC have done during their install. It’s a nightmare because the Owner essentially pays twice. Please, get another estimate from a certified installer. You will be paying for proper design of the equipment, proper layout, proper routing and installation of refrigerant lines (I love it when a GC has his guys sweat the tubing as if it were a water line. HA!), correct amount of refrigerant charge based upon the knowledge of how much tubing was actually run, correct insulation, correct wiring and most of all a warranty and accountability. A certified installer would be easily able to answer your question posed to Green Thinker. Don’t be mislead by the price of the equipment you see on-line but 50k does seem very high for the system you described I’m sure you can do a bit better. Good luck.
jjq | 11 years and 6 months ago
It’s nice to hear a success story with this. Let me ask another question to Green Thinker: Did you choose THREE small condenser units vs. ONE large condenser for any reason? I assume you have one unit per floor. Doesn’t this set up use 3x as much energy? Also, just as an aside: It’s been very cold the last few days (<20 F) -- And I'd like to actually feel the heat that comes off these units. The contractor could not suggest a SPECIFIC public place where I could feel the heat pumps conditioned airflow. Although he assured me his company is "installing these units everyday" In private homes. Does anyone know of any public place (restaurant, other) which uses Mitsubishi heat pumps? Or perhaps someone might let me sneak a peak at a private home set up in NYC/Brooklyn?
GreenThinker | 11 years and 6 months ago
I went the same route as you. Bought everything myself from a dealer, and had a worker from a HVAC company come and install lines and vacuum the lines and run refrigerant. 3 outdoor units, 6 indoor units. $3000 dollars for his labor. I saved a lot of money and he was happy to have made some on the side. While i may not have a warranty, it’s only 5 years parts, and 7 years compressor i believe. Mitsubishi is the best and make good systems. No problems so far. But if something did happen, i wouldn’t have a issue simply buying another indoor unit or outdoor unit. Vs. Having spent 30-50K for a company to come over, do the same thing, and telling me i have 5 and 7 years if anything happens.
jjq | 11 years and 6 months ago
Just not to be misunderstood: I’m not saying it’s not worth every penny to get a qualified HVAC guy to size, and do a complicated installation– I just don’t see how, considering the retail price of the actual mechanical equipment and relatively straight forward install (I understand that nothing’s straight forward once you get into it)– the $60k quote I got can possibly be a market rate for the work. By the way, the contractor was one of three Mitsubishi sent me after I inquired for company certified reps.
jjq | 11 years and 6 months ago
COMPRESSOR 1 Mitsubishi MXZ-8B48NA Mounted in back yard, about 25 feet from basement. Piping goes through basement wall from garden, then 15foot straight run to branch box in basement. All piping runs straight up air shaft, and distributed to blowers on two floors located about 15 feet from arid haft against party wall BLOWERS 2 Mitsubishi SEZ-KD12 1 Mitsubishi PEAD-A24 1 Mitsubishi SEZ-KD18 All mounted in a home which has been been demo’ed down to the framing, so no retrofitting All short run duct work is straight 17 foot runs (across 20foot width of brownstone), through a couple of closets (no load bearing wall alterations) from blowers located on “passageway side” of brownstone Venting along 17 foot run, right angle into front, and right angle into back of brownstone I just don’t see how it’s possible to add $50k worth of labor, electric, carpentry, and ductwork.
brucef | 11 years and 6 months ago
We are HVAC contractors, and something doesn’t sound right about your job desription. Five tons requires mechanical permits, and electrical – was that included in the big quote? Where will condenser be sited, is there access to that location without rigging? If you are correct about everything, you might be able to hang out at United and ask everyone who goes in to PU supplies.
marie-helene | 11 years and 6 months ago
Not sure this is the right approach. Most HVAC contractors will not offer a warranty on installation if hey haven’t ordered the system themselves. I think you should get a couple more quotes before you make rash decisions that might end up wasting you $10k. At least find an HVAC contractor who would accept installing something he didn’t order, before you order it.