Help needed with understanding the renovation process, permits etc.
Bathrooms and kitchens replaced with fixtures more or less in the same spot.
Guest User | 7 years ago
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CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago
to add to Lurker’s concise statements- there is never “no structural work” when you are dealing with gutting a 100+ year old, unrenovated home. Your 10% retainer will be used to cover that. We were “lucky” in that we only went over our contract bid by 10% but we didn’t go with a bargain bid.
And yes, it will take a year at least. We have a neighbor who spent over 18 months actively trying to just get permits. And don’t try to live there during the work, either.
workisfun | 7 years and 9 months ago
And in the “end” (there really is no end, like a work of art or a person, a home is always in-progress), you must accept that even unlimited funds didn’t get you EXACTLY what you wanted. It could be a necessary jog in a wall that annoys you, a very minor crack in plaster at a stress point, or a crappy grouted corner in the penny tiles of your shower, cause your contractor used a less experienced kid to do it, and it turns out penny tiles are a whole other animal from most others. And you’ll say to yourself,” but I’ve paid sooo much money and waited sooo long!” This kind of work takes not just skill but the kind of commitment that only you, as the homeowner, has. Just be prepared to “live with it”! Hopefully, any annoyances, blemishes, screw-ups will be minimal and laugh-worthy. Good luck.
agdipierro
in Renovation 7 years and 9 months ago
I would be happy to walk you through the entire process. Call me at 718 237 0162
slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago
“Everyone loves to think they are the exception to pitfalls”
So true. If I had a dime for everyone who told me “that’s not going to happen to us because . . .” and for whom it then happened to, I’d have my mortgage paid off.
gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago
Carmen— thanks for the budget advice on saving details! The things we would like to save if we can afford to are pretty much what you ended up saving— our bannister (or at least part of it), mantles & floors. I was (possibly naively) thinking that since we won’t be doing a full gut there would be no reason to disturb the floors or mantles so saving them wouldn’t cost “extra”. Unfortunately the staircase does need work.
What’s left of our plaster molding is not in good condition, so we won’t try to save it. The woodwork is very simple and probably pine, so we’re going to leave it painted.
Regarding “there is never no structural work”. How do you uncover structural problems if you aren’t taking up floors? Is it even possible to fix structural issues when you are keeping floors and most walls in place?
Slopefarm/ Cate— I’m sorry to hear both of you have had to go back in for Round 2! Do you see that as resulting more from GC mistakes or from decisions you made about scope the first time around (gutting vs. not gutting)?
Lurker— I’ve been told to set aside 30 % for overages. That fact that yours ended up costing “easily double” your construction contract is terrifying. Did that include deciding you wanted to add elements/features (like AC) as you went along? Any advice on how to get a more realistic contract from the start?
CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago
gemby if you’re not opening walls or removing floors, I suppose it’s possible that you won’t discover structural work. If you’re not removing floors or walls, I would consider that to be more of an “upgrade” than a renovation … like, just painting or adding new light fixtures is not the same as upgrading all of the electrical/plumbing/heating/AC… that stuff requires at least some amount of removing walls.
as a point of reference, if we had gone with the least expensive bid we got, I believe we would have likely gone at least 50% over (if not double.) Our GC threw in a lot of stuff without COs by the time things were done and some of the less expensive GCs didn’t leave us feeling like they would have done us any favors.
slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago
For us, there was no major round two; we just kept finding shortcuts taken by the gC and his crew for which we paid a bit of a price over time. Some poor flashing here, a cornice not tied into the roof property there, some tilework not sloped quite enough for drainage, etc., etc., etc. So lots of remedial handyman jobs along the way, combined with addressing normal wear and tear. We partial-gutted a fair amount of the house, and we replaced all the mechanicals (except heat), not to mention we rebuilt largely from scratch two exterior walls, so the issues we later found were not due to a failure to gut.
30% for overages is a decent figure, provided the scope of work doesn’t change, and you are just responding to unanticipated conditions. But you should be prepared to handle, whether through cash or financing, substantially more than that in case you find you have problems that kick the job up an order of magnitude.
The fear of undetected structural problems is not a reason to gut where you otherwise weren’t planning to do so. I am sure there are tens of thousands of partially-renovated houses with undetected “structural’ problems that remain undetected for the next fifty years. if your inspector didn’t see it, and it does not manifest during renovation, then just accept that sometimes ignorance is bliss and just enjoy your house.
gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago
I see. I think we’ll be doing something in between. It will be a significant amount of work– renovating all kitchens and bathrooms, opening the walls in places to replace plumbing (we’ve already had a 100 yr old waste pipe crack), adding AC, and doing some electrical work like adding outlets. The staircase needs to be fixed or possibly rebuilt. We already know we have structural work to do in the cellar (replacing the beam).
But we won’t be replacing floors, removing walls entirely to change the layout, replacing the heating, or rewriting the house. Plumbers & electricians have told us the heat and electrical are in decent shape.
It definitely sounds like going with the cheapest bid does not always mean the least $$ in the end. I’d rather have a more realistic budget from the start than constant overages.
slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago
Sounds sensible. You really don’t want a GC who underbids the job. If you are using an architect who is independent of the GC, s/he can tell you if the bids are comparable apples to apples, or what seems to be driving the price difference. You don;t have to worry about low bidder if all the bids are close. If there are big differences, then beware.
Lurker | 7 years and 9 months ago
You asked, so here’s my experience: our intended GC bolted so we found someone who seemed like a good option (don’t rely on Angie’s list–go for personal reocmmendations and inspect the work and google the hell out of them) but came in way lower than we expected. The budget bump was definitely underbiding on his part but also normal project creep, which if you’re doing a “partial” reno that is really major at heart and includes systems is pretty easy to encounter. We were dumb noobs.
For instance, if you’re renovating all your kitchens and baths on multiple floors, there’s a good chance you may as well replace all your plumbling or a lot of it. If your place is like many pre-war buildings, you may find there is one electrical outlet per room and the lines are cloth wrap or tube and wire and you may have an ancient fuse box with 100 amp or less service. Well, you’ll need a service upgrade and new wiring. Add some zeroes. And you want a new stove that has a fancy 75k btu burner plus a gas dryer and the second stove and also the boiler is oil and 50 years old and so w hjile you’re their you need to upgrade your gas line. And what the heck, the windows are all plastic or vinyl and gapped and don’t stay up, and if you’re fixing the wall and molding why do it on a crappy 70s replacement windows? That’s 20 windows. And it turns out under your tile flooring is just a gapped subfloor, so you need new flooring on 2 or 3 floors. Oh, and to do most any of the above (besides windows and floors) requires filing plans, which requires hiring an architect or engineer to design them and file them and go through permitting and inspections. That’s not cheap nor easy.
Your project may not involve all or any of those things, and they may be not so drastic or simply in your budget. But it’s pretty common to have the domino effect of “since we’re going to the effort of replacing X, why don’t we bite the bullet and do Y now so we dont’ have to rip up all we just did in 5 years when it dies/leaks/catches fire.” There’s also great satisfaction in the end knowing you’ve rejuvenated your presumably ancient building well and should be off the hook for repairs for a while. Until you need a new roof and insulation 😉
cate | 7 years and 9 months ago
Gemby, you should be able to easily do your scope of work with an architect and experienced and licensed GC and come in at 300K. Not moving things around is a big part of it. An architect is very helpful for design, establishing the scope of work, and creating a good bidding process and having connections to good contractors even if you are not filing an alt-1. (We are using one and nothing we are doing requires an alt-1.) Especially if you are doing central air, you should hire an architect to design it so you don’t see the ducts — everything should be hidden in the core of the house/bathrooms/closets/etc. not going through rooms in hideous soffits. An architect can charge a flat design fee or a percentage of the total cost, depending on what makes sense for the project. Our particular issue was none of the things you mention — it was mostly due to leaks, some hidden and some not. Look diligently for someone who is maybe starting out but has practical experience with townhouses in Brooklyn and whose design sensibility you like. Also if your systems are more than a cer tain number of years old and you’re opening the walls, replace all the plumbing and electrical, don’t do it piecemeal. (Except heating: You can keep the heating pipes and radiators if the system is in good condition.) It’s cheaper to do everything at once and all together. Be very clear you want to keep the details, which means cutting channels for electric and plumbing, not gutting whole walls. Re keeping the details, it has been my experience that they are not difficult or expensive to keep, as long as you aren’t gutting. Depending on your situation, sometimes you can use a specialist (stripper, plasterer, etc.) who is affordable but perhaps not as fast as others because they have a small crew or work with just one helper. Stairs can also be repaired. If you find new treads are unavoidable, you can paint them and keep everything else (railings, newel post, etc.).
cate | 7 years and 9 months ago
Caveat: I’m assuming three floors — if your place is bigger, it will cost more.
empathie00 | 7 years and 9 months ago
Lurker, do I know you? How did you know the details of our reno process so perfectly? 😉
CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago
I love how curmudgeonly we all sound ITT. Bringing the realness!
slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago
Yes, we’ve pretty much hung Dante’s “Abandon All Hope” sign above the whole Brooklyn home reno thing. At least now I know why Brooklyn has so many churches and bars.
Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago
samgo I am going through one right now demo starts this week I have already done all what you have stated perhaps we should chat off line, which contractor are you using? did you do a conventional loan or a 203k?
cate | 7 years and 9 months ago
Here are some useful posts on things to know, costs, etc.:
Top 10 things to know when renovating an old house
http://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/renovating-an-old-house-top-10-things-to-know/
Renovation costs
http://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/renovation-costs-kitchen-bathroom-brooklyn-house/
An example of a down to earth renovation with an architect and a licensed contractor that cost $180K. https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/1/16035940/renovation-diary-row-house-ridgewood
gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago
Thanks again to everyone for all the great info in this thread. I appreciate the curmudgeonly attitudes! It seems like if you don’t have unlimited funds you can easily get yourself into trouble. So I will speak for all of us who don’t, and say we appreciate the realness.
Lurker— thanks for your explanation of the project creep. It all makes sense and there are lessons there. I think I need to consider if I’m being realistic about not needing to replace certain systems.
Cate— thanks for these links, and for the perspective that it’s possible to renovate for less than 250 sq/t. I have a question regarding “strip at the beginning” from the “10 things you should know list”. Is this something that’s typically folded into the work the GC bids on, or would it be better to do before the renovation process begins? It will take us time to line up a team and secure financing so would it make sense to go ahead and start stripping the mantles now?
slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago
re: the 10 things you should know list: It is an excellent list. There are at least 10 more things you should know in the comment thread. Don;t skip on #10, btw. Definitely secure the exterior.