Help needed with understanding the renovation process, permits etc.

Hello dear brownstone owners. This might be an odd question, but we are first time house owners, and in dire need of some advice. I’m looking for someone who has done a renovation on their home (landmarked) and who would be like to talk us through the process and pitfalls of their undertaking over lunch in a restaurant of your choosing (it’s on us of course!) There are so many questions about contingencies, quotes, permits etc etc, we’re completely overwhelmed and looking for some help.

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

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slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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For us, there was no major round two; we just kept finding shortcuts taken by the gC and his crew for which we paid a bit of a price over time. Some poor flashing here, a cornice not tied into the roof property there, some tilework not sloped quite enough for drainage, etc., etc., etc. So lots of remedial handyman jobs along the way, combined with addressing normal wear and tear. We partial-gutted a fair amount of the house, and we replaced all the mechanicals (except heat), not to mention we rebuilt largely from scratch two exterior walls, so the issues we later found were not due to a failure to gut.

30% for overages is a decent figure, provided the scope of work doesn’t change, and you are just responding to unanticipated conditions. But you should be prepared to handle, whether through cash or financing, substantially more than that in case you find you have problems that kick the job up an order of magnitude.

The fear of undetected structural problems is not a reason to gut where you otherwise weren’t planning to do so. I am sure there are tens of thousands of partially-renovated houses with undetected “structural’ problems that remain undetected for the next fifty years. if your inspector didn’t see it, and it does not manifest during renovation, then just accept that sometimes ignorance is bliss and just enjoy your house.

CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago

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gemby if you’re not opening walls or removing floors, I suppose it’s possible that you won’t discover structural work. If you’re not removing floors or walls, I would consider that to be more of an “upgrade” than a renovation … like, just painting or adding new light fixtures is not the same as upgrading all of the electrical/plumbing/heating/AC… that stuff requires at least some amount of removing walls.

as a point of reference, if we had gone with the least expensive bid we got, I believe we would have likely gone at least 50% over (if not double.) Our GC threw in a lot of stuff without COs by the time things were done and some of the less expensive GCs didn’t leave us feeling like they would have done us any favors.

gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Carmen— thanks for the budget advice on saving details! The things we would like to save if we can afford to are pretty much what you ended up saving— our bannister (or at least part of it), mantles & floors. I was (possibly naively) thinking that since we won’t be doing a full gut there would be no reason to disturb the floors or mantles so saving them wouldn’t cost “extra”. Unfortunately the staircase does need work.

What’s left of our plaster molding is not in good condition, so we won’t try to save it. The woodwork is very simple and probably pine, so we’re going to leave it painted.

Regarding “there is never no structural work”. How do you uncover structural problems if you aren’t taking up floors? Is it even possible to fix structural issues when you are keeping floors and most walls in place?

Slopefarm/ Cate— I’m sorry to hear both of you have had to go back in for Round 2! Do you see that as resulting more from GC mistakes or from decisions you made about scope the first time around (gutting vs. not gutting)?

Lurker— I’ve been told to set aside 30 % for overages. That fact that yours ended up costing “easily double” your construction contract is terrifying. Did that include deciding you wanted to add elements/features (like AC) as you went along? Any advice on how to get a more realistic contract from the start?

slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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“Everyone loves to think they are the exception to pitfalls”

So true. If I had a dime for everyone who told me “that’s not going to happen to us because . . .” and for whom it then happened to, I’d have my mortgage paid off.

agdipierro

in Renovation 7 years and 9 months ago

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I would be happy to walk you through the entire process. Call me at 718 237 0162

workisfun | 7 years and 9 months ago

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And in the “end” (there really is no end, like a work of art or a person, a home is always in-progress), you must accept that even unlimited funds didn’t get you EXACTLY what you wanted. It could be a necessary jog in a wall that annoys you, a very minor crack in plaster at a stress point, or a crappy grouted corner in the penny tiles of your shower, cause your contractor used a less experienced kid to do it, and it turns out penny tiles are a whole other animal from most others. And you’ll say to yourself,” but I’ve paid sooo much money and waited sooo long!” This kind of work takes not just skill but the kind of commitment that only you, as the homeowner, has. Just be prepared to “live with it”! Hopefully, any annoyances, blemishes, screw-ups will be minimal and laugh-worthy. Good luck.

CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago

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to add to Lurker’s concise statements- there is never “no structural work” when you are dealing with gutting a 100+ year old, unrenovated home. Your 10% retainer will be used to cover that. We were “lucky” in that we only went over our contract bid by 10% but we didn’t go with a bargain bid.

And yes, it will take a year at least. We have a neighbor who spent over 18 months actively trying to just get permits. And don’t try to live there during the work, either.

Lurker | 7 years and 9 months ago

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If you’d like our input, you can sit at a table and I’ll just sit in front of you and cry for an hour or two. ; )
Slopefarm’s advice covers it well. All Frownstoner stuff aside, if you aren’t relatively wealthy and able to easily afford to pay top shelf for all the trades and arch/engineer and expediters and construction manager, the process is full time job. Everyone loves to think they are the exception to pitfalls. I think the only force field is lots of cash and the ability to not care about spending it.
For a gut everyone loves to say it’ll take 6 month and act surprised when it takes a year. It always takes a year.
Ours easily cost double what our construction contract was once you add in all the extras and screw-ups.

slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Oh, no, Cate!!! Sorry you have to do round 2 on your reno! Good luck. Round 2 for us has been a little of this, a little of that, on a regular basis since the original reno ended, as we keep finding shortcuts taken that turned out to have consequences. to add to Cate’s point, a good question when vetting GCs is how much will the GC be on site. How many other crews does he have, etc., how permanent vs pickup is his crew, etc. Daily QC is imporant.

To add to Carmen’s point — saving details makes a lot of the work harder and costlier — much faster to run plumbing, electrical, etc with the walls wide open. Saving details requires care at all stages. that said, if you have the time and money and have details you want to keep, you will need to push back against GC who will often try to tell you you can;t save what you want to save, when really he is looking for a shortcut.

CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Gemby- most architects will do a free consultation (at least any architect that you can afford will!) A note on “keeping the details”- restoring and repairing is often WAY more expensive than replacing. Do not be deluded into thinking that keeping details will save you money- saving and rebuilding your stairs is going to be more than building them from scratch, saving plaster details is a fortune (and you can probably find very similar looking new moulding/medallions) and don’t even get me started on trying to save some details and then get new pieces to match them (it’s nearly impossible.) Thinks like stripping wood costs a LOT of money due to the time and specialization required. We really wanted to save a bunch from our house (build 1855) but most of it had to go, or we were looking at an easy $50k-$100k in restoration costs on top of the reno price. As it is, we saved our floors, part of our handrail, the newel post and one marble mantle and it was probably around $25k all in just for those things. We wanted to “restore” our front facade but the cost to scrape al l the wood would have been triple just getting new wood replicas milled (which is what we did). Don’t get emotionally attached to stuff in the house when you start a reno.

gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Hey guys, this is a great thread (it helps to hear everyone’s stories).

Samgo— I’m going to email you. We’re in the exact same spot and maybe can compare notes as we’re getting started.

Cate— The type of renovation you’re talking about (200-300K to renovate kitchens & baths, keep the details) is exactly what we’d want to do. We haven’t spoken to any architects because we’re considering not filing (no C of O on file and can’t afford an Alt-1) and didn’t think we had the budget to go the architect route. You say you’d recommend at least talking to an architect. In your experience, do they ever consult for a fee without coming on board to design, file & supervise a project?

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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What is your scope of work? We mistakenly thought our house didn’t need much or that certain things weren’t in the budget and seven years later we have hired an architect and are going back at it. I recommend at least talking to an architect, and hiring only licensed people plumbers, electricians and GCs — check their licenses and watch out for those who are using the licenses of others. Architects and tradespeople experienced with townhouses in Brooklyn will know some of the pitfalls and can potentially save you a lot of money. Also, depending on what you want to do/scope/your approach, it IS possible to update systems, keep the details (or not) and renovate bathrooms and kitchens (and possibly facade) for $200K-$300K, if that is what you want to do.

wzapuhtxphyl | 7 years and 9 months ago

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I have done it both ways. Filed w/DOB, architect, drawings and put the condenser on roof. I’ve also added a condenser in the back for the cellar without filing anything.

For the roof we needed to install metal beams spanning the width of the brownstone because code doesn’t allow you to secure the condenser directly to a roof surface. This means your guys will either have to find a way to carry these heavy suckers up or crane it. That’s when it gets expensive. For the inside units they must drain the evaporation somehow so if you need to connect to plumbing more $$$. You will also need a licensed electrician to make the connections.

For the cellar I just hired someone and he put it in the backyard installed the interior unit and connected electrical. Obviously the amount of labor is less and so is the price.

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Hi CarmenR – thanks for taking the time to write that detail. That’s really helpful and is consistent with what we’re seeing elsewhere. It’s just a bit scary because – as you say – it’s unpredictable. Thanks again.

CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago

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samgo, sent you an email.

ParkSlopeJason- we did see an increase in our taxes, but not a giant jump. It was about 50%, but our tax rate was low (much like yours.) We saw the jump before our CoO but after we filed for permits. The calculation seemed to be roughly the prior years valuation plus the stated cost of the renovation at indicated on the permits, so still substantially less then the appraised value of our house. Compared to a condo of the same price, our taxes are still quite low. We were pleasantly surprised, however it seems like this process is really unpredictable. We budgeted for it to increase the insane max and are happy that we ended up around 6k annually.

kkxmlzpm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Would you consider a design-build firm? A design-build firm can act as one point of contact to streamline communication for you. In addition they can provide detailed budgets up front to help make informed decisions early on in the design process.

Andy Urbany, RA
Dixon Projects
www.dixon-projects.com

jimhillra | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Samgo, I’m an architect, and our office has done many such renovations. I’d be happy to have a lengthy phone call with you, meet over a cup of coffee, or just have you drop by our office and we’ll supply the coffee. We can discuss the process from the architect’s point of view, and give you our experiences with these kind of renovations.

Please feel free to call or email.

Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP
Certified Passive House Designer
Urban Pioneering Architecture, DPC
(646) 309-7259

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Sorry to hijack this thread but I don’t see how to DM people. (Btw Samgo – I emailed you my details. SlopeFarm – somedays it feels like even shots won’t dull the renovation pain!!)

Hello CarmenR (hope you see this) we too are preparing for an Alt 1 non-landmarked in South Slope. We just started a new thread asking if people who had renovated recently & changed CO had seen their property taxes explode (which you occasionally hear horror stories about). Can I be cheeky and ask if you had any problems following your reno?

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Hi ParkSlopeJason, please reach me at mtamazainguser@gmail.com

We would love to buy you coffee somewhere at your convenience. We can use all the help/advice we can. Also it wouldn’t hurt us to get our expectations straight 🙂