Gut Reno estimate - low end
JJQ, if you don’t mind me asking, what did the project end up costing you? Just a range if possible. Also did you have any specific contractor recommendations? Thanks in advance for all your help.
mhquinones
in Renovation 9 years and 3 months ago
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maxjones011 | 9 years and 3 months ago
I’m both new to brownstoner and renovations. I’m looking to buy a brownstone in the Crown Heights / Bed Stuy area as an investment. It would be about 3000 sq ft, 3 floors. I’ve been trying to get an idea of how much a gut reno would cost so I’m not totally going in blind. Posts I’ve read on here have been helpful, but seem to be on the mid-high end range. I’m wondering what an estimate would be if I stuck with the basics, pre-fab, nothing fancy. It would be a rental property with 6 bedrooms and 3 baths. I know I would need an architect and contractor and seems a common estimate for an architect is about 20% / 150/hr. A few other things I’m wondering is if an architect will even take the time to talk to me about estimates without an actual house to look at and work with (again, looking to get an idea before I go all in) and if there’s a bare minimum that can be done by the professionals and the rest DIY (for example, they do plumbing, electric, and walls, but details and finishing is DIY). Any help or advice is much appreciated.
jjq | 9 years and 3 months ago
I’ve just done exactly what you are looking at. Multiple Indie contractors and partial DIY is a recipe for disaster. Look for my other posts on this. Two suggestions which I wish I would have paid attention to BEFORE I started my three floor renovation: 1) get an Architect Involved — for reasons I have discussed elsewhere in this forum 2) if any of the property is to be a rental in the future — look at the project as TWO projects, with rental floors done FIRST One other thing– I also thought that posts on this forum with gut Reno costs looked like high-end numbers three years ago when I bought my limestone. I watched all the DIY shows on Tv and it looked like EVERYTHING was 50% cheaper than people on this forum suggest. The reason for this is that the tv shows never price in Labor for the jobs being done. I mean a gut Reno of 2000 feet in S. CA for $40k– no way. This is NYC. If you can find a compitant GC, or even day laborer– and that’s tough– they make twice as much as you will want to pay. I’m sorry to say, the good guys are hard to find an expensive and worth every penny. GOOD LUCK!
Augustiner | 9 years and 3 months ago
welcome to hell. Fancy or not is not the question. Most goes for side costs, mandatory repairs, sprinkler surprise and so forth. Even demo trash will cost you insane money. It’s the stuff that you don’t even think of. All the architect will do at 10% is file plans with the city, for 20% they might assist you with looking that their plans are built right. Nothing else. Why do a gut if you want it as investment and money is tight? Just slap on some paint and rent it out. Brooklyn style.
maxjones011 | 9 years and 3 months ago
Thanks JJQ. The estimates in your other posts are helpful. How much DIY did you end up doing on your renovation? August, my thinking was that a gut reno on a cheaper place would be less than buying a turn-key property (which may also not have an ideal set-up). I’m trying to gather as much info as I can to decide which would work best.
jjq | 9 years and 3 months ago
Over two years we basically kept the same floor plan but reconfigured everything. The whole back of the house was reframed, rocked, etc. Added 100% new plumbing, 100% new electric, 100% new HVAC and on-demand water heaters for each floor. We did three floors of demo and framing, and will do all trim work this spring. I added a master bathroom off of master bedroom, opened up and updated kitchen, built a fireplace feature in lounge, completely renovated two other baths. What I can’t emphasize enough is QUALIFIED labor is tough to find in NYC, and even harder if you try to find and coordinate the contractors on your own. It’s a 100% horror show. A qualified architect will have lots of connections for labor. As I mentioned in another post, yes an architect will do plans and possibly file with city (I use an expeditor) — if he/she’s been around a while he/she will be able to give you multiple leads on GOOD labor. See my floor plan here: http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/forums/topic/mitsubishi-city-multi-review/
carmenf | 9 years and 3 months ago
SO much of your cost is going to be for structural work and repairs on an older home. Fixing masonry, sistering joists, a new roof, new windows and doors, surprises throughout demo… by the time you’re done gutting and repairing a house that size, the difference between a $800 stove and a $1500 stove will be chump change (trust me- we just ordered our kitchen appliances and the thought of balking over a $200 difference is so comical now.) If it’s a rental building you may by exposed to the sprinkler mess, and then maybe you’ll need a new water main to support the sprinkler (at $5k+ just for the water main.) An architect is fine and good, but you’ll also likely need a structural engineer, expeditors, special inspectors, asbestos abatement/testing etc etc etc. I think even on the low end, unless the building is in STELLAR shape, you’re looking at $175-$225 per sqft minimum without soft costs (and that estimate is without sprinklers, which I’ve heard can cost $30k+ for a large building but I have no experience there.)
carmenf | 9 years and 3 months ago
I should caveat by saying that you can definitely do a lower-end/cheaper job if you’re not interested in fixing non-critical issues. For example, we are staying in a 1br sublet during the duration of our project and it was advertised as “renovated.” Sure, it has newish ikea cabinets, but the whole apartment is sunken in the middle to the tune of at least 2 inches, there’s no insulation, the windows are super drafty, the stairs have been tied onto the wall with metal ties 3x in each rung…. If you’re not interested in FIXING things, I’m sure you can just drywall, repaint, add another layer of laminate flooring, etc and not have an unsafe place. But at some point someone will buy this building and will want level floors and insulation like we did when we bought our place, and that’s when the cost starts to increase. I’m also not judging when I mention this- our apt is fine for us for now, and it’s cheap! It’s actually nicer than the first apartment I rented in NYC. We just want something nicer for our “forever home.” I suppose it depends on what you expect to get from the rental income. I wouldn’t pay more than we’re paying here for a place with uneven floors.
jjq | 9 years and 3 months ago
Yes… Carmenf… We agree. At first you think, and double think the cost of a $1500 double sink or $800 light fixture. It keeps you up at night. Then, after working through 15 or more contractors, some repairing repairs made by the first guys who put 8″ holes in your floors to run 2″ pipe, and once you learn that no one QUALIFIED and who gives a damn about QUALITY will come out and do work on your place unless it’s three orfour thousand dollar contract– even for small jobs– you kinda get numb to the dollar figures of the small items that you were trying to budget before you had an avalanche of labor costs. Then factor in time off waiting for guys to show up, who eventually come to the job 4 or 5 hours late with some lame excuse (my favorite was “I was at church) and all the calls from guys who get half way into the job and call you saying “I need more money to finish” ( my glass guy needed an extra $3k on a job he quoted at $6k) and figure in the “surprises” you find once the contractor has been paid and left (my plumber did not connect any of the water vent stacks in the 12″ side of my clocks loft)— you run out of money quickly and get frustrated with contractors even quicker. If you are borrowing money to buy the property….. Borrow 30% more than you think you will need. You’ll (unfortunately) need it.
jjq | 9 years and 3 months ago
Just re-read my first post on this…. I want to make clear that an architect should design the WHOLE project (item 1) BEFORE you start on anything (item 2.) Make your mistakes on paper NOT on the job site. Then look at the project as TWO projects — 1) self contained rental and 2) your space. You can qualify labor on the rental, and move them over to your space renovation once they have proved capable, reliable, cost effective, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, able to read plans and follow architects suggestions… This avoids the 8″ holes for 2″ pipes syndrome which happens when contractors hand off jobs to each other or just don’t give a damn.
maxjones011 | 9 years and 3 months ago
Thanks everyone! This certainly gives me a lot to think about. Does anyone have any insight as to when I can start talking to an architect? Is it even possible before a house is purchased, just to go over basic layout and costs? Or is it pointless since so much can change depending on the property?
jjq | 9 years and 3 months ago
Line up your team NOW! Unless you have done this before, or know someone who has QUALIFIED leads, you will speak to dozens of architects and contractors along your project’s path. Architects especially love to show off their work….. And anyone who can’t spare a half hour for you is either too busy or too big for your project. Start NOW!
resident2 | 9 years and 3 months ago
I have been in the reno to rent, the reno to sell(flip) as well as co-op/condo business for thirty years. I am glad I am not starting out now. The market is too tight to learn on the job, especially in the neighborhoods that you want to get into. But to get into it with absolutely no experience: are you a plumber? a rental agent? I suspect not from the questions you are asking is extremely risky. Good contractors do not want to work for people that do not know what they are doing, architects do not manage the construction unless they are being paid to do so (big money) and all the best architects and contractors are extremely busy right now and do not have time to baby sit a client. Best to buy a building that does not need a gut rehab, that does not need a C of O change etc., it will be cheaper in the end, and you will learn a lot as you go, especially if you are loyal to the plumber, the electricians etc., that you meet along the way, they are generally happy to share information… as the saying goes: “an educated consumer is the best customer…”
sqhaexgkh | 9 years and 3 months ago
We used a design build contractor who would go to a house if we liked it (before purchase). They were then able to see issues/potential issues and give us a rough price per square foot.
a2chitect | 9 years and 3 months ago
We have experience with multiple gut renovations/additions to brownstones and townhouses. Without knowing much about the actual house you are looking at, I would plan somewhere between $275-$300 per square foot. From what you describe, 20% for architecture fees seems a bit high. We’d be happy to discuss the process with you and give you an idea of potential hard costs (construction costs) and soft costs (consultant fees + DOB and permitting fees.) As for doing some of the work yourself: This is possible, however we’ve seen clients that have tried to bite off more than they can chew and drag out the process much longer than they had hoped. Unless you have experience with this or consider yourself extremely handy, I wouldn’t go this route. You can find yourself in trouble with getting sign-offs from the DOB and closing your permits. Feel free to reach out to us if you want to discuss more. ARCHITECT-A2 PLLC www.architect-a2.com
slopefarm | 9 years and 3 months ago
One more word of advice. Do not put yourself in a position where you have no room for the costs to be higher than you anticipate. Whereever you land on the anticipated total cost, make sure you can still handle it (and make timely progress payments along the way) if the job ends up costing 30-50% more than you originally planned.
maxjones011 | 9 years and 3 months ago
Thank you, thank you for all great advice so far. A2chitect, the sq ft estimate is more than I was expecting/hoping for, but I would like to start talking to some professionals soon so I will keep your contact in mind.