Exposed brick sealing?
@stevecym
Residential dehumidifiers are rated to remove 20 to 70 pints per 24 hours (commercial one run up to 300 ppd) . I was was recommending the higher end residential ones. They all have a humidistat and will go on and off as necessary. They also have timers and I was recommending not using the timer, but let the humidistat control it.
shahnandersen
in Renovation 4 years and 9 months ago
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24 replies
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Hello, new here and, also, a new home/condo owner.
I removed some drywall the other day from the cellar “office”. What I thought was going to be a small patch job (a part of the drywall was squishy) turned into a full-on demo as 45% of the drywall just deteriorated in my hands. I discovered that the drywall was tacked directly onto the brick wall… and got wet from a leak (not yet identified where the leak came from)… and because money is tight, my husband and I have decided that we now have a super hip exposed brick wall in our cellar.
– First, after I clean it more… I was wondering should I seal it? I sprayed molder/fungicide on it and am drying it out with a dehumidifier.
– Second any thoughts on how to close up the gaps between the ceiling and wall edges?
Also, this brick wall is an exterior wall (don’t know if that matters)
Also, the baseboard radiator is right in front of it (I don’t know if that matters either)
Sorry. This was long. But please help! [Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 3](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:lfTP:screenshot20200924at3.46.30pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 3](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:c5OK:screenshot20200924at3.46.49pm.png.jpg)
stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago
i do not know why others have not come on here and said something. I reno’d an entire unit in the city in the 90’s and we never sealed the brick but the owner was discussing with me. his feeling was that if it is not sealed, it would keep breaking down and producing dust. this was almost pre internet so we could not check all this out and read like we can today – but he had either heard that or read it and we could not find the solution.
i know not what to do: do not put oil base poly on there. as it ages it will yellow and look like poop spread on the brick. i had seen it done long ago before all the other products had come along.
i am thinking that back in the 90’s we talked of using water base poly. that would not yellow and low lustre might not show a gloss. but also, brick will absorb product unevenly (like wood does, i am a woodworker; brick probably absorbs more though and more evenly that wood, but it will not be perfect) and unless you put a lot on you might see some “build” in some places and none in others – “splotchy”.
do not attempt to use water based poly on my suggestion above. go read about it and see what others say. there are other things you can put on brick, thompson’s water seal (which will not keep water out from the outside but will help with the brick on the inside) but i am not sure that will have the effect you might want.
wait to see what others say or read. someone on here has done this they are just not on here now.
stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago
and keep something in mind with brick: its not like wood where if we put something on we do not like, we can sand it off. once its on brick, its pretty much on it. during a period of unemployment one time i had to take a job sanding something off a massive brick wall in a commercial facility that was being converted into residences; it was not fun and it came with all sorts of health hazards (this is why i complain in some other posts about hiring people without worker protections – been there, done that; its ok when we are young but health does not last forever).
the thompsons will soak in and disappear with little affect on the surface. i just don’t know if that is what you are looking for.
if others do not come on here, keep reading.
donaldnouse | 4 years and 9 months ago
Before doing any form of moisture sealing, you may want to check your shared coping blocks atop your house. Sometimes the mortar there will degrade, or the blocks themselves will crack, roof material will pull away from the party wall, etc. Finding the source of the leak should be the utmost priority, sealing and cosmetic repair should only follow once it’s fixed.
stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago
after reading bkgeorgian’s comment and op’s post (again) i realize what i am saying may be misconstrued. the suggestions i make have nothing to do with moisture sealing (sure thompsons can be used on the OUTSIDE of brick to keep moisture from coming in from the outside and i am not sure that would work anyway; people seal the outside of below grade brick with other unattractive things like flashing cement) but more to do with protecting the appearance of the brick as one might apply a clear coat to wood. i suspect that is what the op was looking for but to bkgeorgian’s point, if you try to apply something to brick on the inside (such as water based poly which i would still research) it might very well hide the issue for a little while and erupt as a full blown headache later (moisture coming through wood from the other side causes issues all the time).
of course they have product to water seal cellar walls from the inside. drylock or something but that will white wash the wall and you will lose the “brick” appearance.
if that is a front facing wall, the water can be coming in from the outside. in our house (which is a 1920’s queens house and may be constructed different) water can slip in under the roof where the roof hangs over the rear facia (i sealed that gap by running fiberglass tape and flashing cement over the roof and into the gutter). it then runs down the inside of the rear wall of the house – doing nothing until it hits something on the first floor and appears in the kitchen. its bizarre. leaks can be bizarre. as bkgeorgian said, check the capstones (we should all check these, failing joints in the capstones lead to a lot of parapit rebuilds). some houses do not have capstones, but the roof bends over the top of the brick and is sealed to the one next door. in commercial buildings, we would have a leak appearing some place inside and would trace it back along structural elements to an origin hundreds of feet away. this can take time – so plan on watching the area for a while.
you might be able to seal the area between the ceiling and brick with crown molding for appearance. caulk would be a disaster in a place like that. i often thought of trying expandable foam in such a gap and letting it dry and cutting it off with a razor or plunge saw and then finishing it like one would finish a wall – with compound. i might have done something like that once but cannot recall but it sounds like it would work.
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Thanks so much Stevecym and bkgeorgian! I am having to demo some more walls (more damp patches!) in the next few weeks so I will probably post again once I have a clearer idea of where the water is coming in from.
I really appreciate the responses and insight!
donaldnouse | 4 years and 9 months ago
Get up to the roof and take a look, usually the easiest way, no demo needed.
stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago
@bkgeorgian: you are correct in what you say, that is where they must start. but my guess is this one will not be so simple.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
Are you located in Brooklyn? I ask because I’m surprised to see baseboard heating in an underground cellar. It’s a good thing you exposed the brick and that you are drying it out. A fan is also helpful. You may need to remove the floor covering too (because of mold). Do not seal the brick with anything. The leak urgently needs to be found and stopped. Is this new construction? Is the builder liable? Is the condo board aware? In any event, there are a lot of possible explanations. Possibilities include but are not limited to: Something holding or dripping water against the side of the building (clogged and overflowing gutters, broken drainpipe, air conditioners, etc.), ground outside sloping toward the building instead of away from it, or a leaking cellar wall that needs to be waterproofed and repointed (from the outside, never from the inside). As for the baseboard heating, I am no expert, but I would wonder if water on the heating unit might have potential to cau se a short and a fire. Also take precautions, wear a mask and other protective equipment when demo’ing to protect against coming into contact with large amounts of mold all at once.
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Oh, man… I AM located in Brooklyn… I am just now realizing now how bad it is to have baseboard heat in a cellar… I’ve only owned this place for less than a month!!!!
I opened up another wall (the front-facing wall because I believe the moisture is coming from the front… going to be watching this week when it rains) I discovered that the original owner used regular drywall to finish the cellar, laid it directly on the foundation floor, and when it began to fail, they just slapped a sheet of mold-resistant drywall on top of the crumbling one… Also, instead of fixing holes they just used mounds of plaster to cover the holes making the wall wet and causing the drywall to begin to fail? I attached a picture…
So… Questions… What in the WORLD is that gigantic pipe opening? Was that used to shuttle coal into the cellar way back when? Unless it is the entrance to the Ninja Turtles sewer home I would really like to close it… How do I do that?
Should I just keep this wall open? It looks a mess but I would rather keep it open if it will save me heartache down the road.
There are holes in the floor (that were hidden by the wall) and also holes from missing mortar… How do I close those?
The building is old pre-1920’s… I haven’t told my condo board was sort of thinking this would be a small issue that I would fix without it getting too messy?
I haven’t looked at the roof (I don’t know if I have access?) they are fixing the roof though…
[Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:U7F6:screenshot20200929at12.01.40pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:BTtg:screenshot20200929at12.01.50pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:peAB:screenshot20200929at12.15.23pm.png.jpg)
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Also, thanks Cate for your concern! I have been wearing goggles, a respirator, and a little disposable jumpsuit with a hood and gloves… I also bought myself a ton of mold killer…
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
FWIW I had a very similar issue in my Brownstone. I checked the roof and laundry vents and didn’t see significant cracking, so put some heavy duty tarps on the roof in the vicinity of the leak. When the walls stayed wet I knew the issue was elsewhere.
After removing a few bricks from the wall on the parlor level I found my neighbors waste pipe was corroded and leaking into my walls. I ended up replacing all the plaster on 3 floors, plus sistering joists that had rotted out. I suggest removing a handful of bricks. If you are friendly with your neighbor ask them where their plumbing fixtures are and you can work out which bricks to remove to check if that is an issue for you.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
You have my deepest sympathies. I hope this cellar area is not any kind of legal living space you need to make use of your new home. IMHO, and this is only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, these cellars in 19th century Brooklyn houses were not made to be used as living spaces. They are eternally damp because moisture wicks in through the masonry from the earth behind them — even if there are no actual leaks. Personally, I like my cellar walls to be exposed so I can see what is going on down there at all times. Ambitious individuals with deep pockets may try to waterproof a cellar by digging outside in the front and rear, waterproofing from the outside and repointing, then likely as not also running a dehumidifier night and day as well. Sometimes a developer or flipper will try to make a cellar look good temporarily by painting or covering with a “waterproof” layer (not a good idea because the masonry will deteriorate) or putting up a layer of something such as drywall. Some will even attempt to cover leaks with layers and layers of drywall. Hoping the basebo ard heating can be easily removed by a licensed electrician. Take lots of pictures, consult with your closing real estate attorney immediately about a number of issues — possible covering up of defects, whether your title insurance covers this, liability to fix defects, whether you paid for space that was misrepresented, whether and how to involve the condo board, and so on. Just FYI in cases when construction defects affect an entire building, sometimes all the owners hire an attorney and sue the builder as a group. In any case, I hope you can find the source of the leaks and easily fix them. As for plumbing being an issue, yes a plumbing leaks can also be an issue, but typically you can find them without removing bricks. I think it would be unwise for anyone who is not a professional mason to remove bricks for any reason especially from a cellar (foundation) wall. Also, if you have a leak on the front wall, it would not also cause a leak on the back wall. FWIW we had a leak in the cellar where our building adjoins another — water was getting back behind there when it rained when our ground floor was covered in PermaStone and we couldn’t see that the mortar behind it had deteriorated. Re what you found behind the drywall, I’m not sure. The big pipe looks like a sewer pipe but its height and lack of slope suggest some other purpose. Perhaps it’s a vent line (fresh air intake) to the exterior from the building’s main sewer line, if the building’s main sewer line is buried underground, which would be unusual. Not sure about the other hole — ooal chute sounds plausible. Whatever it is, hopefully it’s not open on the other end and admitting rats or other vermin. How is the air ventilation down there? I also personally would never store anything such as paper or clothing in a cellar. It will always smell of mildew, in my experience. Good place to store ladders, shovels, etc. Good luck.
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
@Brit-in-brooklyn there is no one sharing the brick wall that is possibly the issue… But I will keep that in mind as I open the rest of the walls. Because those walls might. The contractor I am working with seems to think it is because the drywall is on the floor and wicking moisture up and it not because of an active leak.
Thanks for the thoughtful post @cate!
Need to seal that pipe opening up quick… When I opened the wall there was like an inch of rat poop on the ground… The drywall had holes in it I wonder if the mold ate through it or a rat… Trying not to think about it…
As for misrepresentation, we bought it “as is” I figured that it means we bought all the horrible issues we are only discovering now? We did a walkthrough, a final walkthrough, and a home inspection. I feel at this point we are stuck with it. And truthfully, I still like the place.
I wasn’t planning on making the cellar a living space… but I did want to use the cellar as an office/studio/tv room. I totally understand that cellars weren’t designed to be bedrooms but I was hoping i t could be space we could live in partially.
I think we remove 90% of the drywall and (if only because we cannot possibly afford to do anything else) try to limit our use of the cellar until we can fix whatever leaks might be happening.
stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago
if that is the front wall, i am guessing the moisture is coming through the brick. a number of people i’ve known have dealt with this and some have opted to dig the earth out around the house and have the walls sealed. others have used drylock on the interior but if you do that you will lose the red brick wall.
the other thing, maybe the leak is not as bad as it appears. maybe the dry wall held the moisture there and if you get a dehumidifier in there it might dry it out to a point that it is tolerable?
zlapqtorekgljwxy | 4 years and 9 months ago
ugh. what a crappy situation to find behind your sheetrock. the big opening definitely looks like a coal chute to me and you need to plug it up asap. even if it was capped at the street there’s clearly some kind of opening elsewhere between the street and your space if the rats have been getting in. Call an exterminator to have them assess both your space and the outside space so you can get this particularly nasty piece resolved pronto. now that it’s all exposed it should be easier to identify what’s going on – is it getting wetter when it’s raining or a day after or is it always some degree of wet? so my advice at this point would be to take pictures daily so you can monitor changes, that will help you figure out what might be going on. hopefully the rat part is the hard part and the water part will have a clear resolution.
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Stevecym, I am really really hoping that this is all the result of the drywall sealing in the damp. Or at the very least sealing in the damp exasperated the issues I am now finding…Thank you for mentioning that this as a possibility it is really helping me keep hope afloat. 🙂
I think my plan is the following:
1) Seal that coal chute (was up all night imagining rats using the chute as a slide) and the other voids in the walls…
2) Open all the walls that have damp and start airing them out (I am not moving into the new place for at least another month so this will give me time to air out the place without having to live with the soil smell/mold…)
3) Wait and watch. So I can get a real idea of what is really happening…. This will drive me nuts but waiting through the NYC freeze-thaw cycle might help my husband and I identify all the issues before we jump into something and having to back peddle. I mean we have a 30-year mortgage so not like I am going (or want to go) anywhere 🙂
nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago
Maggie O, totally! Thanks for your input I based my wait and watch thing off your suggestion. I wanted to go in hammer drills blazing but you are right. Monitor first. Thanks 🙂
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
I agree with all of the above. Hire an exterminator immediately (someone local) who can tell you what needs to be done, and then hire someone to do it (hopefully someone who works with the exterminator). Most likely they’ll seal the holes with concrete or something concrete-like. All of this should hopefully cost only about $80 for the exterminator and $300 or so for the concrete. Then watch the walls. Hopefully, as Steve says, it’s only wicking damp and not actual leaks. Either way, it seems likely neither the exterior walls (nor the floor) were properly waterproofed in the way they would need to be to safely have electrical outlets and baseboard heating at ground level or to use the space as anything other than tool storage. Hopefully everything will turn out to be no big deal and not worth litigation and you will be very happy with your new home, but either way, I would still call your closing attorney to find out the answers to those questions I mentioned abov e. FYI FWIW some types of title insurance do provide recourse for misrepresentation and defects even in “as is” sales. Do please keep us posted on what happens with the holes and the leaks. Good luck with everything.