Exposed brick sealing?

Hello, new here and, also, a new home/condo owner.

I removed some drywall the other day from the cellar “office”. What I thought was going to be a small patch job (a part of the drywall was squishy) turned into a full-on demo as 45% of the drywall just deteriorated in my hands. I discovered that the drywall was tacked directly onto the brick wall… and got wet from a leak (not yet identified where the leak came from)… and because money is tight, my husband and I have decided that we now have a super hip exposed brick wall in our cellar.

– First, after I clean it more… I was wondering should I seal it? I sprayed molder/fungicide on it and am drying it out with a dehumidifier.

– Second any thoughts on how to close up the gaps between the ceiling and wall edges?

Also, this brick wall is an exterior wall (don’t know if that matters)
Also, the baseboard radiator is right in front of it (I don’t know if that matters either)

Sorry. This was long. But please help! [Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 3](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:lfTP:screenshot20200924at3.46.30pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 3](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:c5OK:screenshot20200924at3.46.49pm.png.jpg)

nathanjoe755

in Renovation 4 years and 9 months ago

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shahnandersen

in Renovation 4 years and 9 months ago

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@stevecym
Residential dehumidifiers are rated to remove 20 to 70 pints per 24 hours (commercial one run up to 300 ppd) . I was was recommending the higher end residential ones. They all have a humidistat and will go on and off as necessary. They also have timers and I was recommending not using the timer, but let the humidistat control it.

cate | 4 years and 9 months ago

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This post has been very interesting. Take photos of the “drywall behind the drywall” if you can. That is, uh, suspicious. What do you mean the “subfloor in the bathroom is virtually non existent”?

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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bkgeorgian hahaha, I know, right? When I first posted to this thread I was like, “Just a little wet drywall no big. Just got to figure out how to treat it.” The next thing I know I have uncovered a coal chute, some other pipes, old rat poop, more drywall behind other drywall, more wet spots… …

It went from 0 to 90 real quick. I am still trying to overcome the shock. (I thought the biggest issue I would run into was that the subfloor in the bathroom was virtually non-existent last week)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, bobjbkln! I need it. We have a dehumidifier going right now and it has done an amazing job at wicking water out of the walls which is why I am holding onto the Stevecym theory that this isn’t as bad as originally imagined. We might rent a big one this weekend as we plan on pulling out the rest of the drywall this weekend. Our “fix-up” budget is getting smaller by the second.

stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago

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i mention a dehumidifier above as well. these seem to be something people are less familiar with here in the city as they often have central air and are not as low to the water table. on Long Island, a lot of people have them.

OP should not assume that the dehumidifier will become an constantly running appliance. i mean yes, if there is a lot of water there – like the cellar is sitting in it or during the rainy season perhaps. but it may be that OP can run it for a week, dry this mess out and then put it on for a couple hours a week or one entire day a month to maintain. we use one on Long Island and it is not something that has to be left on all the time. we do not even have it hooked up the way bobjbkn mentions but just empty the water catch as needed. i am not sure what bobjbkn means by high output (these eat electricity just like a window a/c unit; they have a compressor in them), but the ones we have always used (inc the one in my shop) have a one or one and a half gallon water catch. when it is really humid, running one of these machines for 2 4 hours or so will fill that catch and you will feel the difference in the space. to get that wall dry you will want to run it three or so days and i would direct the dry air coming out of the machine at it so it picks the moisture up as it passes. you will see a difference in 24 hours, easily.

shahnandersen

in Renovation 4 years and 9 months ago

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Your immediate plan makes sense. I would add one more immediate expense. Get a good high output dehumidifier. If there is a floor drain the water can go directly into the drain via gravity. If your sewer lateral is above cellar floor (no floor drain) you will need a dehumidifier with a built-in pump to get the water to drain level. Start running it now before you move in.

donaldnouse | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Wow, this has escalated quite a bit from my original coping blocks suggestion. Sorry to hear about these troubles. For what it’s worth, we’ve run into our fair share as well and ended up replacing the entirety of our home’s electrical and waste systems due to a combination of age and neglect. The good news is, you found the problem before you moved, and have time to mitigate it without it affecting your daily quality of life. On top of that, we’re lucky in the sense that buildings are quite simple, and most problems have solutions. Best wishes.

cate | 4 years and 9 months ago

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I agree with all of the above. Hire an exterminator immediately (someone local) who can tell you what needs to be done, and then hire someone to do it (hopefully someone who works with the exterminator). Most likely they’ll seal the holes with concrete or something concrete-like. All of this should hopefully cost only about $80 for the exterminator and $300 or so for the concrete. Then watch the walls. Hopefully, as Steve says, it’s only wicking damp and not actual leaks. Either way, it seems likely neither the exterior walls (nor the floor) were properly waterproofed in the way they would need to be to safely have electrical outlets and baseboard heating at ground level or to use the space as anything other than tool storage. Hopefully everything will turn out to be no big deal and not worth litigation and you will be very happy with your new home, but either way, I would still call your closing attorney to find out the answers to those questions I mentioned abov e. FYI FWIW some types of title insurance do provide recourse for misrepresentation and defects even in “as is” sales. Do please keep us posted on what happens with the holes and the leaks. Good luck with everything.

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Maggie O, totally! Thanks for your input I based my wait and watch thing off your suggestion. I wanted to go in hammer drills blazing but you are right. Monitor first. Thanks 🙂

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Stevecym, I am really really hoping that this is all the result of the drywall sealing in the damp. Or at the very least sealing in the damp exasperated the issues I am now finding…Thank you for mentioning that this as a possibility it is really helping me keep hope afloat. 🙂

I think my plan is the following:

1) Seal that coal chute (was up all night imagining rats using the chute as a slide) and the other voids in the walls…
2) Open all the walls that have damp and start airing them out (I am not moving into the new place for at least another month so this will give me time to air out the place without having to live with the soil smell/mold…)
3) Wait and watch. So I can get a real idea of what is really happening…. This will drive me nuts but waiting through the NYC freeze-thaw cycle might help my husband and I identify all the issues before we jump into something and having to back peddle. I mean we have a 30-year mortgage so not like I am going (or want to go) anywhere 🙂

zlapqtorekgljwxy | 4 years and 9 months ago

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ugh. what a crappy situation to find behind your sheetrock. the big opening definitely looks like a coal chute to me and you need to plug it up asap. even if it was capped at the street there’s clearly some kind of opening elsewhere between the street and your space if the rats have been getting in. Call an exterminator to have them assess both your space and the outside space so you can get this particularly nasty piece resolved pronto. now that it’s all exposed it should be easier to identify what’s going on – is it getting wetter when it’s raining or a day after or is it always some degree of wet? so my advice at this point would be to take pictures daily so you can monitor changes, that will help you figure out what might be going on. hopefully the rat part is the hard part and the water part will have a clear resolution.

stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago

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if that is the front wall, i am guessing the moisture is coming through the brick. a number of people i’ve known have dealt with this and some have opted to dig the earth out around the house and have the walls sealed. others have used drylock on the interior but if you do that you will lose the red brick wall.

the other thing, maybe the leak is not as bad as it appears. maybe the dry wall held the moisture there and if you get a dehumidifier in there it might dry it out to a point that it is tolerable?

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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@Brit-in-brooklyn there is no one sharing the brick wall that is possibly the issue… But I will keep that in mind as I open the rest of the walls. Because those walls might. The contractor I am working with seems to think it is because the drywall is on the floor and wicking moisture up and it not because of an active leak.

Thanks for the thoughtful post @cate!

Need to seal that pipe opening up quick… When I opened the wall there was like an inch of rat poop on the ground… The drywall had holes in it I wonder if the mold ate through it or a rat… Trying not to think about it…

As for misrepresentation, we bought it “as is” I figured that it means we bought all the horrible issues we are only discovering now? We did a walkthrough, a final walkthrough, and a home inspection. I feel at this point we are stuck with it. And truthfully, I still like the place.

I wasn’t planning on making the cellar a living space… but I did want to use the cellar as an office/studio/tv room. I totally understand that cellars weren’t designed to be bedrooms but I was hoping i t could be space we could live in partially.

I think we remove 90% of the drywall and (if only because we cannot possibly afford to do anything else) try to limit our use of the cellar until we can fix whatever leaks might be happening.

cate | 4 years and 9 months ago

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You have my deepest sympathies. I hope this cellar area is not any kind of legal living space you need to make use of your new home. IMHO, and this is only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, these cellars in 19th century Brooklyn houses were not made to be used as living spaces. They are eternally damp because moisture wicks in through the masonry from the earth behind them — even if there are no actual leaks. Personally, I like my cellar walls to be exposed so I can see what is going on down there at all times. Ambitious individuals with deep pockets may try to waterproof a cellar by digging outside in the front and rear, waterproofing from the outside and repointing, then likely as not also running a dehumidifier night and day as well. Sometimes a developer or flipper will try to make a cellar look good temporarily by painting or covering with a “waterproof” layer (not a good idea because the masonry will deteriorate) or putting up a layer of something such as drywall. Some will even attempt to cover leaks with layers and layers of drywall. Hoping the basebo ard heating can be easily removed by a licensed electrician. Take lots of pictures, consult with your closing real estate attorney immediately about a number of issues — possible covering up of defects, whether your title insurance covers this, liability to fix defects, whether you paid for space that was misrepresented, whether and how to involve the condo board, and so on. Just FYI in cases when construction defects affect an entire building, sometimes all the owners hire an attorney and sue the builder as a group. In any case, I hope you can find the source of the leaks and easily fix them. As for plumbing being an issue, yes a plumbing leaks can also be an issue, but typically you can find them without removing bricks. I think it would be unwise for anyone who is not a professional mason to remove bricks for any reason especially from a cellar (foundation) wall. Also, if you have a leak on the front wall, it would not also cause a leak on the back wall. FWIW we had a leak in the cellar where our building adjoins another — water was getting back behind there when it rained when our ground floor was covered in PermaStone and we couldn’t see that the mortar behind it had deteriorated. Re what you found behind the drywall, I’m not sure. The big pipe looks like a sewer pipe but its height and lack of slope suggest some other purpose. Perhaps it’s a vent line (fresh air intake) to the exterior from the building’s main sewer line, if the building’s main sewer line is buried underground, which would be unusual. Not sure about the other hole — ooal chute sounds plausible. Whatever it is, hopefully it’s not open on the other end and admitting rats or other vermin. How is the air ventilation down there? I also personally would never store anything such as paper or clothing in a cellar. It will always smell of mildew, in my experience. Good place to store ladders, shovels, etc. Good luck.

Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago

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FWIW I had a very similar issue in my Brownstone. I checked the roof and laundry vents and didn’t see significant cracking, so put some heavy duty tarps on the roof in the vicinity of the leak. When the walls stayed wet I knew the issue was elsewhere.

After removing a few bricks from the wall on the parlor level I found my neighbors waste pipe was corroded and leaking into my walls. I ended up replacing all the plaster on 3 floors, plus sistering joists that had rotted out. I suggest removing a handful of bricks. If you are friendly with your neighbor ask them where their plumbing fixtures are and you can work out which bricks to remove to check if that is an issue for you.

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Also, thanks Cate for your concern! I have been wearing goggles, a respirator, and a little disposable jumpsuit with a hood and gloves… I also bought myself a ton of mold killer…

nathanjoe755 | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Oh, man… I AM located in Brooklyn… I am just now realizing now how bad it is to have baseboard heat in a cellar… I’ve only owned this place for less than a month!!!!

I opened up another wall (the front-facing wall because I believe the moisture is coming from the front… going to be watching this week when it rains) I discovered that the original owner used regular drywall to finish the cellar, laid it directly on the foundation floor, and when it began to fail, they just slapped a sheet of mold-resistant drywall on top of the crumbling one… Also, instead of fixing holes they just used mounds of plaster to cover the holes making the wall wet and causing the drywall to begin to fail? I attached a picture…

So… Questions… What in the WORLD is that gigantic pipe opening? Was that used to shuttle coal into the cellar way back when? Unless it is the entrance to the Ninja Turtles sewer home I would really like to close it… How do I do that?

Should I just keep this wall open? It looks a mess but I would rather keep it open if it will save me heartache down the road.

There are holes in the floor (that were hidden by the wall) and also holes from missing mortar… How do I close those?

The building is old pre-1920’s… I haven’t told my condo board was sort of thinking this would be a small issue that I would fix without it getting too messy?

I haven’t looked at the roof (I don’t know if I have access?) they are fixing the roof though…

[Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:U7F6:screenshot20200929at12.01.40pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:BTtg:screenshot20200929at12.01.50pm.png.jpg) [Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 12](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:peAB:screenshot20200929at12.15.23pm.png.jpg)

cate | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Are you located in Brooklyn? I ask because I’m surprised to see baseboard heating in an underground cellar. It’s a good thing you exposed the brick and that you are drying it out. A fan is also helpful. You may need to remove the floor covering too (because of mold). Do not seal the brick with anything. The leak urgently needs to be found and stopped. Is this new construction? Is the builder liable? Is the condo board aware? In any event, there are a lot of possible explanations. Possibilities include but are not limited to: Something holding or dripping water against the side of the building (clogged and overflowing gutters, broken drainpipe, air conditioners, etc.), ground outside sloping toward the building instead of away from it, or a leaking cellar wall that needs to be waterproofed and repointed (from the outside, never from the inside). As for the baseboard heating, I am no expert, but I would wonder if water on the heating unit might have potential to cau se a short and a fire. Also take precautions, wear a mask and other protective equipment when demo’ing to protect against coming into contact with large amounts of mold all at once.

stevecym | 4 years and 9 months ago

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@bkgeorgian: you are correct in what you say, that is where they must start. but my guess is this one will not be so simple.

donaldnouse | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Get up to the roof and take a look, usually the easiest way, no demo needed.