DOB for kitchen sink/fixture replacement clarification

I’m getting conflicting answers about whether I need a plumbing permit to replace a sink cabinet and sink with a new one. It will go in exactly the same spot in a small Manhattan co-op kitchen. My expeditor surprised me late in game (after other DOB-permited work had been completed and I was ready to have architect sign off) by telling me that replacing sink required a plumbing permit. Another expeditor (and other architects) have said this type of job requires no permit; it is Ordinary Plumbing Work. My expeditor has insisted he’s correct about the permit requirement because it is a ‘fixture’ (though his emails are barely intelligible). Anybody with DOB plumbing permit knowledge care to weigh in on this and recommend a way to have it resolved?

thomasnyc

in Plumbing 11 years ago

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greenmountain | 11 years ago

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At any time, you can replace a fixture in the same location as described in the fact sheet I sent you. The monthly report is filed by a plumber on line in their office. The coop will approve if you tell them you don’t like your sink and you want a new one, as long as you have a licensed plumber. If you have a sink – any sink. Get the permit signed off ASAP and later replace the sink with an ordinary plumbing report filed by a plumber. Just you and a plumber. Thank you and good by to everybody else.

thomasnyc | 11 years ago

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Thank you all for your responses. Yes, every professional seems to give me a different answer. A few have said I should have the permit amended and the sink removed, but my lovely expeditor balked that this would raise red flags, etc. I will speak to our co-op and see what they have to say. Maybe they will say no permit needed, though I still have to get the DOB amended, and my expeditor doesn’t seem to want to do this. Another expeditor who agreed sink is Ordinary Plumbing hasn’t replied to my request to take over. Maybe it’s not worth her time? Crazy that me, the homeowner, the one who knows least about all this is the person who has to figure it all out. In the end I may have to just bite the bullet and do what my expeditor wants.

greenmountain | 11 years ago

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Oh, sorry for going on and on again. Now I read the op. It may be a problem with the expediter, or maybe Jock understands why the expediter would say that.

greenmountain | 11 years ago

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Yes Bob, but in this case I really think they have reformed. It could be the coop is imposing rules, where none exist. I have not had any problem when the plumber files a monthly OP report. That is the usual way my jobs are done, and the system seems to be working fine. But, if the coop board wants more hassle, and the city insists on less, the job will be delayed, until the coop gives in. The city doesn’t have to waste money on the permit process, when none is required. Perhaps if the architect files to replace a fixture in the same location on a job which includes other changes requiring a permit, it may seem as if the sink required a permit, but is merely incidental. I have more recently included an out for myself in contracts with coop shareholders, which could cause the coop board to reject a shareholder’s alteration application. And, I explain my reasons by presenting the above fact sheet with my estimates for coops. Coop managements insist I sign a contract before they approve my job. But, if after I sign, the coop forces a stupid confrontation like this, I can’t wait around. Again, I don’t know the details and I am not a plumber. Would any plumbers like to contribute?

BobMarvin | 11 years ago

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The conflicting answers from knowledgeable frequent=posters goes to show how much DOB procedures need to be reformed.

greenmountain | 11 years ago

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Of course, I haven’t seen your job, and don’t know the particulars, but read the fact sheet and see if it helps.

greenmountain | 11 years ago

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http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/op128_factsheet.pdf This is an easy-to-read fact sheet from the city to you on exactly this topic. I had a job held up for 2 months when a coop building’s architect insisted my client needed a permit, when it was ordinary plumbing. The city was saying “We don’t have enough inspectors to send out on stuff like that.” The Coop stood behind the architect, until a pipe burst and my licensed plumber and I were allowed to proceed “on an emergency basis.” That architect no longer works for that coop.

laurie11201 | 11 years ago

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You do not need a permit to replace a sink. Permit and Inspections Process for Residential Buildings § 403.61\. Residential buildings. This subchapter and §§ 403.62–403.66 apply to municipalities electing to enforce the Uniform Construction Code under § 403.102 (relating to municipalities electing to enforce the Uniform Construction Code) and third-party agencies. § 403.62\. Permit requirements and exemptions. … (c) A permit is not required for the exceptions listed in § 403.1(b) (relating to scope) and the following construction if the work does not violate a law or ordinance: …

> (5) The following plumbing work: (i) Replacement of bib valves if the replacement hose bib valves are provided with an approved atmospheric vacuum breaker. (ii) Refinishing of existing fixtures. (iii) Replacement of ball cocks. (iv) Repair of leaks. (v) Clearance of stoppages. (vi) Replacement of faucets or working parts of faucets. (vii) Replacement of valves other than shower or combination shower/bath valves. (viii) Replacement of traps. (ix) **Replacement of a water closet, lavatory or kitchen sink.** (x) Replacement of domestic clothes washers and dishwashers.

Our building’s engineer (RAND Eng and Arch) also confirms “Work that doesn’t require a permit includes replacing (but not relocating) toilets, sinks, or other fixtures; painting or wallpapering; adding or modifying window coverings; or similar cosmetic changes.”

resident2 | 11 years ago

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Technically you need a permit to do almost anything…it will soon be required to change a light bulb. Your expediter wants to get paid!

jockdeboeraia | 11 years ago

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Yes, it is required. The plumber can pull an LAA.