new under-stoop gate, smart-locks, new locusts

Are we done yet. What mike is saying will work. The latch only knob or lever catches and stops the gate from bouncing back. Yale bolt closes. Not really what you wanted but will work. You will have to build the Yale out on something. I used painted and shaped marine plywood once.

justinromeu26

in General Discussion 1 year and 5 months ago

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arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Hi, Happy post-Thanksgiving to everyone.

We’re getting to ready to replace our under-stoop iron gate and would appreciate some feedback on our plan.

The goal is to have a gate that opens and closes easily, that locks automatically when closed, where we can let people in without giving them a key periodically and where we’re not overally dependent on a not totally reliable smart-lock.

We’re going to use Piscopo ironwork. Vinnie’s is cheaper but won’t work with us on different lock options. Vinnie’s insists on using the one lock they always use.

We’re going to use a Baldwin or Marks mortise lock. I’m not clear whether one is really better then the other. Marks is still made on Long Island which is cool. We’re going to re-use the Multi-lock cylinder we already have since it’s keyed to a master-lock system already.

I think we’re going to try and use a solid knob on the outside with a spindle instead of the hollow thru-bolted ones. I’m not sure yet whether this will work.

We’re going to use an August lock with a keypad. We may have to adapt the August lock to the lockse t with a new tail piece. I can have one of these 3D printed.

I’d love to hear any thoughts on why any of this might be a bad idea and/or any different ways of doing the same.

Thanks in advance to anyone who reads this far.

best,

David

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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This is a tad confusing. Are you installing two locks, a mortise and a tubular deadbolt? So a mortise knob and a tubular august deadbolt? Or a tubular deadbolt with an august adapter?

Marks is a fine product and i see twenty year old ones still out there. Baldwin is better but the weight of their product is a lot less since they began manufacturing in Mexico. I feel quality has slipped. A Marks costs like $100. A baldwin like 600 minimum. What you are paying for with the baldwin is the finer trimwork and knobs. Is spending $500 plus more on the gate worth it? Also, mounting any lock in a steel gate is not without immediate and long term challeges. In the end, because of fit and mounting, you might spend $700 on a baldwin and it might work like a $100 marks because of challenges with the fit and mounting.

arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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I’m sorry it wasn’t clear. Let me try to clarify.

Only a mortise lock such as a Marks or Baldwin. Nothing tubular is intended.

I haven’t figured out the knobs and handles but mostly want to make sure I can get away with spindles rather than thru-bolted ones. You and I talked about this issue once a while ago. I suppose we could forego knobs and just go with a deadbolt only.

The August device goes on the inside of the gate where a thumb turn would go and turns it to unlock or lock. It’s not actually a lock but is instead a retrofit option. I like I better because we can easily remove it if we don’t like it in the future or want to replace it.

I see Baldwin for sale in the $330 range versus Marks $100ish. I don’t mind paying more if it’s a better product but I can’t tell and I’m having a hell of a time differentiating all of Baldwin’s model numbers.

I hope to install this gate with some clearances to prevent the rubbing that often interferes with their opening and closing. Also, some bracing to help keep it square over time.

Thanks

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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ok. first. august will not work with a mortise and that is what was throwing me off. august is for tubular and they are what have a tailpiece. i looked into the about two years ago now and unless something has changed, that is how it is.

when you look at baldwin, be sure you are not just looking at the trim set. many times you see someone advertising a trim set for $399 and then you have to go get a lock case (the insides) and that adds another 399.

Here is the problem you can have: only baldwin offers a true slam lock with a dead latch (not a dead bolt but a dead latch and maybe a bolt). a dead latch cannot be shimmed. i think the baldwin no is 6061 and i might have one here. or maybe a 6066.

Never buy through bolted anything.

but the marks will slam and lock but the lock can be shimmed with a credit card. not a dead latch. to really lock it, as if you are going away (as opposed to going to the corner store for 5 mins) you need to throw the deadbolt on a say a marks 91A. 91A is NOT the through bolted model; it has a spindle.

marks mi ght make a dead latch. but i do not think i see one in the catalog i have. a bigger wholesaler might have something.

if the gate is thin, you might need to cut spindles and you might need a spring bound expandable mortise collar for any cylinder that might be too long for the thin gate.

arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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I’ve rigged the August to work with a Marks already – it will throw the bolt but required me to 3D print a piece for it. The August comes with pieces like this picture I’ve included. I’ve made one that has a male piece which will turn the lock.

What I’d do is disable the locking via the latch and simply rely on the August to lock the bolt behind me.

With regards to Baldwin pricing I’ve only been looking at the lock itself so far such as

https://www.baldwinhardwaredirect.com/products/6321-replacement-mortise-lock?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9ourBhAVEiwA3L5RFl9zYAp6egNuXJVND_4kP2vmNSSo1Og6jn3uBf56W3z0gZFqALH4BhoC7WkQAvD_BwE

I haven’t figured out the trim and such yet.

What do you think is a good depth for the gate with regards to spindles and such? I’m still undecided whether I should bother with knobs and such or just use a deadbolt only and create a dummy handle of some sort. [Screenshot 2023-11-26 at 6](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:VAfb:screenshot20231126at6.43.40pm.png.jpg)

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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that lock body you posted is for a thumb press style lock. it also does not look like it is a dead latch. if you want a slam latch you really should have a dead latch. you need the 6066 i think.

you know, here is the thing with the gate. i know you don’t want through bolts, but without them it is hard to mount the trim.

I am not sure what you are using this access for but if it is an air bnb and you modify that these locksets and someone got trapped inside in an emergency, that could spell trouble. be careful.

i would go with a dummy knob and a tubular deadbolt. i suppose that august will self lock a deadbolt?

arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Thank you for the advice. I wouldn’t mind thru bolts if I could find trim that wasn’t so crappy.

I’m using this for access for cleaners, kids who lose expensive keys, the occasional renter – no airbnb for us.

Why tubular deadbolt versus one of these mortise ones? Any particular manufacturer/model you’d recommend? I thought tubular required a really thick gate. Yes, these will self-lock a deadbolt.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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ok, tubular can require a thick gate (at least like 1 3/8? you would have to confirm that) because the pieces that join the tailpieces will hit. But you can get shims for many locks. if done right, you will not even know a shim is there. i am not sure of all of the shims for all manufacturers because i deal mostly in pricier locksets (you will not see a pair of medeco shims under their tubular locks; those shims also cost like $50 a pair; Medeco locks do not work with August). i had to mount a yale or schlage smart lock on a gate and that lock uses the same tailpieces with the same collars for the tailpieces and i had to build it out on a painted piece of marine plywood.

be sure you can get a latch that will slam. otherwise that august system has to close it automatically.

I suspect that there are some baldwin that use through bolts. some of the modern style ones. i seem to recall installing one a year ago. i think i have one downstairs and it is hideously ugly. it might only be the trim set. i have so much crap here that i have start getting rid of stuff; i might give this one away.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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I think the baldwin that use thru bolts are the modern sleek ones.

arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Thanks for all of your input – IF you were doing this yourself and were installing a new understoop gate – what would you do? My only requirements are that I can use a multilock cylinder and that I have smartlock access. I’d be happy to buy any or all of it from you.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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let me think about what i would do.

i am a lock retailer. but i do not actively retail. i do it for existing customers and when i do installations. i do not retail baldwin though one of the wholesalers i have an account with stocks some of their product but not what you or I or most brownstoners would want (they carry crap for the suburbs).

i have this modern baldwin trim set here and at this point i will give it to someone on this board for the ask but i doubt you will like it.

arewedoneyet | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Thanks again –

shatz | 1 year and 5 months ago

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I’ve looked into smart mortise locks for my security gate in the past and the only solutions I’ve been able to find are dedicated smart mortise locks (ex. yale nextouch, aqara A100, etc.), the switchbot lock (might not work in all instances), danalock (only works on european style mortises), or an electric strike controlled by some sort of smart relay

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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i have a list of challenges and concerns for you. i have to get away from my desk and get to work so i cannot run down it now. i will get back or you can email me.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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so a couple of things:

first. gates are not like doors. they do not have closers on them and when we slam them they bounce back. this might be ok for a slam latch but for an automatic deadbolt this will be a problem because the gate might not settle in the aligned position. the deadbolt will extend and retract.

you really need a latch. and a dead latch at that. i am not sure if the cheap locks that work with august make a deadlatch for that type of tubular lock. a deadlatch might be able to be open with an august keypad and will certainly close.

even if you go with a deadlatch, these things can be shimmed by a credit card or thin piece of metal if they are not aligned properly and the auxiliary latch is not where it should be. this is ok when you run to the store for a few minutes. it is not how to leave a house for the weekend.

if you go with a baldwin mortise, you will want the deadlatch which i think is the 6066 model body (we have to confirm that) but again the deadlatch will not operate if the latch is not properly aligned with the frame and the auxiliary latch is not in position.

you can rely on a mortise deadbolt and not rely on the deadlatch but again, if the gate snaps back after a teenager pulls it shut and runs down the road (i tell my customers “tenants and teenagers” are the problem here), the august will go to work and find itself jambed and retract.

gates are not easy to deal with.

you may want to look at a yale or schlage smart knobset. i did put on on a gate at the start of covid and the gate was too think so i put a dressed piece of marine plywood on and all was good. also, i have a new wi fi sending unit i think for a schlage and i can give that away.

I can probably think of two or three more concerns for this set up.

Steve

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Ok, i just took a look at the august line of products and they have a unit that goes in the back of those Yale locks. Those brass colored horseshoe shaped things. Or it may be that they make that lock. I would Google “august slam lock”. May be the way to go.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 5 months ago

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Looks like Schlage might have something that will work with august. B250P626

You would have to check tailpiece.

Also, might have to shim.

Another thing I do not like about gates is they often do not have nice, large and flat and stable or firm surface areas on which to mount tubular or surface mounted locks. So if this has not been done yet, have these gate people make a 2’ tall by 6” wide pair of steel plates on the lock side where the locks can go. Either a mortise can be inset or a tubular bored. That steel must be firm or it is impossible to tighten up a tubular lock.

Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 5 months ago

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If your gate doesn’t close cleanly, the august lock will fight against the mismatch between door and opening. I had one on a big thick door and had two problems: the little plastic piece (part of the interface between the August mechanism and the lock) got worn down and the battery in the August lock ran down very quickly. I ended up deciding that keys just worked better.

JohnHancock | 1 year and 5 months ago

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I’m really interested to hear about the locusts…