Master Plumber Help Desperately needed!

put a regulator on that supply line in the basement. Pressure is to much.

hillman

in General Discussion 8 years and 7 months ago

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stuyheights | 8 years and 8 months ago

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Master Plumber help needed-

This is a long one and I hope someone is able to help or give some suggestions. We completed a gut reno on a 4 story, 3 family brownstone last year. We absolutely hated our plumber who was shoved down our throat by our GC. I have so many plumbing issues in the house I have been addressing one by one. “Tapping” noises all over the cellar and ground floor due to thermal expansion from pipes not being properly fastened to a bang when my top floor tenants flush the toilet. Our walls have been opened up more times than I can count. I have a good grip on just about everything at this point (for the most part) other than the banging. Now follow me here-

It is NOT a water hammer. I am certain of it- Water hammer arresters have been installed on every toilet and fixture in the house. We had the water hammer problem already which has been resolved.

It sounds like the cast iron pipe is actually banging up against framing. I was told this was not possible due to the weight of the cast iron pipe but I was so sure I knew what the noise was that I cut open the walls and found the pipe to be secure, so it’s not that.

The waste line goes up to the top of the roof and straight down from each of the two apartments. The only slight turn is inside our master bathroom in our bedroom on the ground floor.
I can live with hearing the water sound (even though I know the pipe should have never been placed inside my master bath wall to begin with). The Banging noise drives me absolutely insane though. The thing is, it doesn’t happen every single time. I had this crazy weigh theory that I thought it was the toilet paper making the noise and hitting the angle in our master bath.

The plumber just came back to our house this past weekend and after many flushes, he finally heard it. He has no idea what is making the sound (but the guy is about as sharp as a marble).
He suggested he send his buddy to our house who has a camera to drop down the line. He was convinced that something was stuck in there. Well, there isn’t. The camera went right through with no issues and the guy doing it didn’t see a thing. So………… What is it!? I can’t wrap my head around it and its driving me absolutely insane. I am hoping we can all put our heads together and attempt to figure this out. And yes…. I am sure it’s not a water hammer. It’s this weird banging type sound that doesn’t happen every time but when it does, it can wake us up (that’s how loud it is).

I have had 3 plumbers come to the house and they either have no clue what it could be or I can’t make it happen for them while they are there. I feel like people think we are nuts and are making this up. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Would love some replies from some master plumbers. I do not want to finish my house by patching up any holes they have made until I figure out what in the world this could be. THANK YOU

stuyheights | 8 years and 8 months ago

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[IMG_0551](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:POuk:img_0551.png.jpg)
This is what the pipe looks like in the master bathroom. This is the only turn/bend. The rest goes straight up to both apartments. I am hearing the noise in the master bathroom 100%

resident2 | 8 years and 8 months ago

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Is it properly vented?

stuyheights | 8 years and 8 months ago

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Resident, Thank you for your reply. Based on anything I have read I have certainly considered this a possibility but not quite sure how I would know if it was properly vented or not. According to the plumber, yes. I have tons of pictures of the construction of the house to refer to. There are vent lines on every floor

GreenThinker | 8 years and 8 months ago

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Try flushing with a bucket filled with about 2 gallons of water. If you get a bang this way, you’ll know it’s something with the waste pipe. It’s more likely that it’s something with the water line. Most water lines aren’t secured properly.

reuventenam | 8 years and 8 months ago

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The sound might be coming from the water hitting a tee. As an example. The force and speed of the water as it travels to the end point which is your house trap might be hitting a wall inside the piping and the sound is the water bouncing off that inner wall. This really is not an uncommon problem. There is a rule we follow when installing waste lines. That rule is All waste piping must turn on a 45 degree angle so as to allow a smooth flow to its end point. Now if there is a tee in a spot the the water hits depending on what the water is taking with it the added weight can increase the sound. The one part where it cannot happen is on a vertical drop. It has to hit something. I hope this helps you in any way.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Thank you all again for your replies. I heard the “Bang” again last night. I also had the tenants flush 2 gallons of water down the toilet bowl and it didn’t happen. For the life of me I cannot figure this out or what is causing it.

Reuven- any other ideas on anything further I can look into? The problem is, the cellar is finished. Not only finished, but sound proofed. I would have to rip off two layers of sheetrock to get to the underside of it.

The line drops straight from the top floor apartment, straight down to the second, through the parlor, then down to the master bathroom, then has a 45 which I provided a picture of, then cuts across the entire width of the cellar. I wonder if the noise is coming from when it hits the cellar and cuts across and is banging up against something. The plumber used a combo of PVC and Cast Iron everywhere. I guess its possible for me to be hearing something from the cellar when it sounds like the wall in the master bath but I were to bet I would say it was the master bath. When it makes the noise (sometimes harder/louder then other s) it sounds like it is bouncing. Like the impact is causing it to bounce off of a stud or something.

Does the picture I provided look correct?

reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I don’t see any pictures . Send it to my email smbplumbing@gmail.com

reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago

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There is definitely noise from pvc but not what your describing. I would also need to visit your house and hear it for my self

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I will send the pics to your email address. The problem is, I have had many different plumbers to the house and 99% of the time I can not get it to make the “banging noise”. That is what makes diagnosing the problem extremely difficult. It only happens sometimes and I don’t know exactly what causes it. Its 100% the waste line

reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Ok I wish I had an answer to help you

cmu | 8 years and 7 months ago

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is the tenant’s toilet one of those new 1.28 g. flushers?

You mention thermal expansion, which is only an issue with hot water pipes. So is the tapping only when you wait for hot water (ie when pipes were cold?)

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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The thermal expansion noise is only coming from the cellar and ground floor. The pipes look like they were ran through wood without any insulation or support clamps.

What is the general rule for venting a waste line in a 4 story, 3 family? How many venting lines should be off of that stack and at what distances? I’m considering this to be a possibility as well.

cmu | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Vent pipes admit air. Highly unlikely to make any noise of your type.
Generally plumbers make holes larger than the pipes, so binding is not likely. They could be clamped badly.
How loud is the noise…my steam pipes which have been plastered close over the years where they go through the ceiling or wall make loud clicks as the system heats. I’ve gotten used to them.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Thanks for the reply CMU. I do believe the apartment toilets are the 1.28 kind. The thermal expansion noise are loud pops but that is the least of my concerns at this point.
Its frustrating because its all brand new plumbing and in my opinion, I shouldn’t have to be dealing with this type of stuff in a brand new gut renovated home. I know where all (or most) of the copper pipes are ran from the cellar to the ground floor so cutting the walls open, insulating and securing better wont be the end of the world. This “banging” on the other hand is an entire different story. At least I know what is causing the thermal expansion “ticking”. The most frustrating thing in the world is hearing a huge bang in your house from time to time and not knowing what it is and what is causing it. I am certain it only happens when the toilet bowls are flushed from the top two floors. I can never get it to happen on demand.

Process of elimination tells me –

1. It can possibly still be a water hammer somewhere but I highly highly doubt it. Water hammer arrestors were installed everywhere a nd the top two apartment copper plumbing are not in my Master bedroom ceiling or master bath.

2. All of the force of the water traveling down 20-30 feet are ending up in one 60 degree bend that is very close to the framing and it is somehow shifting the waste line a tad and it is smacking up against the framing. The entire marble shower should need to be cut open to access this pipe. It will be a nightmare and expensive.

3. We have a venting issue. I have TONS of pics of the construction being done on the house. I do not see any vent lines tied into the stack on the parlor or ground level. Maybe the run is too long and not enough venting is through the main drain line? The parlor floor is almost 11 feet tall and the ground is roughly 8. Lets call it 20 feet right there. Would that be too long of a run not to have vent lines tied into it? I could be wrong and just not seeing the venting in the pics.

I had a guy drop a camera down the stack from the roof all the way down and he said he saw no obstructions in the pipe whatsoever. Every time I have a plumber at the house I can never get it to make the noise. This morning around 7am when my tenants are getting ready for work I heard the bang a few times. I don’t know if its due to what is in the toilet at the time, some type of pressure buildup overnight or the water hitting the pipe just right to make it hit the framing or what.

No clue- but I’ve been trying to solve this problem for months. Have no idea what exactly is causing it. Its driving us insane

reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I think I may have figured out your problem
There is a device called a hammer arrestor
Generally at the top of the risers it is good to install this helps prevent knocking or banging when water makes a sharp stop as example when using a toilet the water can shift to the faucets as the toilet is taking in the water to fill the tank. This is a common problem. Without getting into specifics it is very inexpensive to install it. You can install it at the water main above the meter. Worst case senerio it doesn’t work it’s still a good device to have. Look up water hammer on Wikipedia. Although it is better to install on the top of the risers the walls will have to be open and the workeys will cost a lot more money. I have installed many of them in the cellar and it did create a change. That’s not saying this is your real problem but it may be. Any way I hope this helps you.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Reuven- Thank you again for your reply and your contribution to this post. As previously noted (in the original post), water hammer arrestors have been installed on every single fixture and toilet in the house. This includes the kitchen sink, bathroom faucet and toilet of both apartments as well as our triplex.
There are no water hammer arrestors in the cellar but we did try an expansion tank which did absolutely nothing so we removed it.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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CMU- I am not saying the vent pipes are making noise. I am wondering if it is possible that the waste line itself is making noise due to not being vented properly (having enough air).
I came across this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system
Take a look at the “Operation” section of it. I wonder if this is what I am experiencing.

hillman | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Here’s my 10 cents.
It could be the water pressure. The supply cold can bang when a supply is opened or closed.
Also it may not happen all the time because the water pressure may not be as high because there maybe a high demand for water in the area.