Brooklyn Brownstone Renovation 11215
Hello
If you are looking to speak with an architect about your renovation, please feel free to contact me at mph@polyarch.studio
We are based in Boerum Hill, Brooklyn and specialize in renovations.
My best,
Polly Horne, RA
www.polyarch.studio
uchenna
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
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29 replies
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
I’m hoping to get rough estimates on a home renovation. Home was originally my grandparents and I would love to keep it but it needs a complete renovation, and depending on the costs I might not be able to afford it.
House was renovated in the mid 80s (no permits pulled) so some if not most electric and plumbing were updated. When they purchased the home the rental unit was on the 3rd Fl and their duplex was the middle floor and garden level, They changed the layout to the garden as the “rental unit”, and moved the top floor kitchen to the middle level. Will this cause issues with permits? Is it easier/more cost efficient to revert to the previous layout?
Home needs new windows and doors throughout, as well as renovating two kitchens, two bathrooms, and one powder room. Washer/dryer needs to be moved. All stairs in my opinion need to be redone or at least fixed, (risers have moved out of place). Extension built on 1st Fl in 1937 needs to be completely gutted including exterior, (room in the past has experienced leaks, is extremely cold, and currently has roofing s iding for walls). Cellar needs to be waterproofed and repointed, replacing existing sheetrock, coal hatch needs to be waterproofed, wooden columns need to be replaced with steel, and new water-heater and boiler, (as per engineer’s report). Cellar also has old out of use wiring that needs to be cleaned up and plumbing that needs to be replaced. Floors on 1st and 3rd floors need to be replaced, 2nd Fl can be refinished, (with exception of kitchen and bathroom). Deck needs to be removed and redone. 3rd Fl has a drop ceiling and skylight I would like removed and replaced respectively, and roof to be re-tarred since I’m already renovating.
I would like of a 3/4s wall that separates kitchen and dining room to be removed. The opposite wall to the kitchen is also a 3/4s wall I would like to be a complete wall. I was hoping to install some sort of HVAC system, and make some other changes but again, depending on the cost of the project I’m not sure if I can.
Do I need a “gut renovation” or maybe just a partial gut? I know I went into great detail, but the generic NYC renovation sites (Sweeten) didn’t cover some of the specifics I would like done. My next step is to consult an architect but I would like to know ballpark what this would cost with slight customizations.
Sorry for the rambling!
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
Sorry I’m not sure how to edit but also asbestos removal at the very least in the cellar
nednedx
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
Looks like you need extensive work done. Best to consult a few architects who might be able to give you more informed quotes. Rule of the thumb, and also from personal experience, budget $100 – 150 per sq foot for partial gut
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
If you do this with permits and have to get a new cofo, you’ll probably end up doing a full gut and spending 500k to 1m. If you have no cofo, or you can comply with the cofo, then maybe you can do things cheaper. Electrical and plumbing done with no permits in the 80s probably reused a lot of the old work, or didn’t really comply with the code. Most likely joists have been cut and million other problems will be found. The houses weren’t worth enough in the 80s to do good work on most of the time, and in general a lot of crazy stuff was being done for a variety of reasons. In fact, if they had done nothing since 1920 I’d be more optimistic for you.
If you can avoid the cofo issue, and the mechanicals are ok and you’re mainly doing finish work maybe you get out for 200-500k. There’s a lot that can impact the cost, but it’s a good bet that you won’t like the cheaper choices as much. Windows and doors alone could cost 40k or more. Cheaper options do exist, but I guess it depends what you’re expecting. Boiler and water heater, figure 5-10k. Asbestos wont make that cheap er. I’d say a rental grade bathroom update might be 7500 to 12k, and a nicer job maybe 15 to 20k. Replumbing a whole house might cost 40k+. Roof, 5k to 20k. A drop ceiling could have crazy stuff above it, anything from asbestos to water damage to janky plumbing. The partition walls are probably not a major expense. It really depends, and I could be off by a lot, but if those numbers look scary you should be concerned.
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
Certificate of Occupancy is a two family converted from one family. The architect’s designs from 1980s indicate new plumbing and new electric work added (not reused). As per online DOB I cannot find the current CofO nor any permits from post 1937, so I’m assuming they weren’t filed. I‘m hoping the entire project with contingencies, architect, builders’ risk insurance, and attorney would be 500K-700K but after interviewing several GCs their price points are all over the place since there’s no architect yet. I personally don’t want to pay for an architect to tell me that it will be 700K plus which will force me to sell.
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
In my opinion, you want to pay for an architect, so even if you sell, you will not be selling blind. You’ll have an estimate of what renovations would cost for you to price the house and negotiate with a potential buyer. The architect can also give you a lot of ideas on keeping your costs down if you keep it. This is a very valuable piece of property. You need to spend what it takes to get your full value from it.
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
So here’s what I’d do. Go to Brooklyn DOB and request the folder for your lot. They will probably take a week or two to pull it up from storage, if it exists and hasn’t been lost. Also, request the microfilm. You’ll may need to take the microfilm to a shop and get blowbacks if there is microfilm on file, microfilm sucks. You could try using a loupe to read the microfilm and see if it’s useful before making prints. If you find a cofo, then the question will be, what does it say. Is it 1 or 2 family. If it’s 2 fam, then it will usually say which floors are used in which apt. If you don’t find a CofO, you can check if there’s an I-Card on file, this you can check online. If there’s and I-Card, and no CofO the i-card may be accepted by DOB who can issue an LNO which essentially serves the function of a CofO for that use. I know it sounds absurd as I type it, but that’s more or less how it works. The I-Card will usually say which floors comprised which apt.
Now let’s say the apt is on the ground floor, and the I-Card or CofO says it should be on top. Well then you could t ry to put it back on top to avoid the need for a cofo change. If the final configuration would be different, you might need to do something with the CofO. Is changing a two family to a differently arranged two family a change of use and occupancy? I don’t know, it would be interesting to hear from an architect about that.
Let’s say the documents indicate it’s a single family. Well you could renovate it to use as a single family, but that may not be what you want. But the bottom line is if you need to do a Use and occupancy change and issue a new CofO it’s going to be more expensive because the entire building will need pass inspection and certain things will need to be modernized.
But let’s address the main question. The OP has a budget of 500k-700k, and is asking on the brownstoner forum if that is enough to renovate his house. I think the answer is yes. Will you get everything you want done in your budget? Almost certainly not, but who does really? Also, are you expecting rental grade fininishes, or something better? Probably you’ll be wasting your money if you do a really cheap job as when you sell the place the next buyer will end up pricing in a renovation. But if you’re gonna keep it in the family forever, and you like homedepot finishes, then go for it.
My advice, you’re doing a smart thing asking here. Talk to everyone you know who’s done a job like this and learn about what can happen. Talk to contractors and see what they say. Read a book, I liked on-time and on-budget by john rusk, although it’s a little dated, and not NYC oriented, not much has changed. You should know how much a mason costs per hr, how much a carpenter costs per hour, and how much a plumber or electrician costs roughly per hour. If someone quotes you 10,000 for what appears to be 2 days of carpentry, you should find out what’s going on. Maybe what the contractor is building isn’t what you thought. If you have a sense of prices, you can get more comfortable with the budget, and what overruns may look like. The actual cost is much more complicated to figure with overhead, profit, risk etc. , but if you understand the dynamics and drivers, I think it would help you get more confident that your project will fit your budget. An architect can help you with this. But the more the architect does, the more you will pay them, and no architect is going to watch your money like you would.
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
Oops, I just looked at my post and it might imply that 500-700k wouldn’t go further than rental grade finishes on this project. That wasn’t what I meant, just that there’s a wide range of outcomes that could affect the cost.
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
Thank you very much!
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
One last question, online (https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/business/certificate-of-occupancy.page) it says homes built and altered before 1938 did not need a Certificate of Occupancy – so if there’s none on record would that benefit me? II still plan to go to the DOB, but the home is classified as a B3 (two family converted to one family). The neighbors next door purchased their house in 2012 and renovated it the same way, (garden apartment rental, top two floors duplex) and they pulled permits, but they don’t have an updated Certificate of Occupancy.
Proof of a Building’s Legal Use Without a CO
Buildings built before 1938 aren’t required to have a Certificate of Occupancy – unless later alterations changed its use, egress or occupancy. If you require proof of a building’s legal use – and it’s exempt from the CO requirement – contact the Department’s borough office where the property is located to request a Letter of No Objection.
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
If no cofo you can get an lno to use the building the same way it was used in 1937. Usually you’ll need to substantiate this use with evidence such as an I-card or tax records, utility records etc.
MDR | 5 years and 7 months ago
i-cards were only used for multifamily buildings (3 or more) so I don’t think you’ll find that here. The CO is only an issue if owner wants to change the use.
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
MDR, if he wants to move the apt from the top floor to the garden floor, is that a change of use? Usually the CO says which floors make up which apts.
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
I have this saved from my mom’s house – perhaps now the Certificate of Occupancy is more discriptive but this is pretty vague. It literally just says two family home. Also for the record, I’m a “she”. [CO](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:PtqD:co.jpg.jpg)
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
This seems very promising, but I don’t know how you can get dob to recognize it if it’s not in their files. A copy might be in the dob folder. It’s probably time to talk to a pro. Another resource could be to go to homeowners night at dob and ask the examiners what they think, but I doubt you’ll leave with a final answer. I use he as a generic singular, thanks for clarifying your pronoun choice.
Let me offer one more thought. You want to know if the project can fit your budget. You may be tempted to ask contractors to put a quick price estimate on your job to see if it is feasible. I do not recommend this. Make them sharpen their pencils and be patient. If they have to rush a bid it will be higher.
Please keep us posted on what you decide to do and how it’s working out. I think this is an interesting one to following.
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
@MDR There is an I-Card on our house which was never used as more than a two family. The I-Card is for two units (with a roomer), DOB lists it as a one-family. We have an LNO.
jen-kg | 5 years and 7 months ago
This sounds like anywhere from $500k-$1M to me depending on specifics.
Lurker | 5 years and 7 months ago
@MDR yeah that’s not the case with I-Cards. We also have one for our 2-family, which has only ever been a 2-family, built in 1910.
To me what you’re describing is effectively a gut. For 3 floors, new roof, new HVAC and and electric and plumbing, and NOT doing structural work like ceiling beams, new decks, new basement floor (which I bet you’d end up wanting to do) I’d think you should budget 400k for a low-end job but done by the book with a legit contractor and arch/engineer. Add more if you need to change Cof0, and do windows, have crazy asbestos issues, need a new foundation or basement floor, new structural supports or beams in the basement, etc. Also count on this taking more than a year and also that your taxes will double afterwards. You may have unwelcome discoveries, like you need a new water line (existing could be lead), natural gas (which is problematic currently in much of NY) upgraded electrical service, and you’ll want to check out your sewer line.
southsloppy | 5 years and 7 months ago
fyi, not all C of Os have been scanned / are available online. Mine isn’t. When i went to the DOB they were able to track it down pretty fast (less than 5 minutes) and got me copies for a couple of bucks.