Brooklyn Brownstone Renovation 11215
I’m hoping to get rough estimates on a home renovation. Home was originally my grandparents and I would love to keep it but it needs a complete renovation, and depending on the costs I might not be able to afford it.
House was renovated in the mid 80s (no permits pulled) so some if not most electric and plumbing were updated. When they purchased the home the rental unit was on the 3rd Fl and their duplex was the middle floor and garden level, They changed the layout to the garden as the “rental unit”, and moved the top floor kitchen to the middle level. Will this cause issues with permits? Is it easier/more cost efficient to revert to the previous layout?
Home needs new windows and doors throughout, as well as renovating two kitchens, two bathrooms, and one powder room. Washer/dryer needs to be moved. All stairs in my opinion need to be redone or at least fixed, (risers have moved out of place). Extension built on 1st Fl in 1937 needs to be completely gutted including exterior, (room in the past has experienced leaks, is extremely cold, and currently has roofing s iding for walls). Cellar needs to be waterproofed and repointed, replacing existing sheetrock, coal hatch needs to be waterproofed, wooden columns need to be replaced with steel, and new water-heater and boiler, (as per engineer’s report). Cellar also has old out of use wiring that needs to be cleaned up and plumbing that needs to be replaced. Floors on 1st and 3rd floors need to be replaced, 2nd Fl can be refinished, (with exception of kitchen and bathroom). Deck needs to be removed and redone. 3rd Fl has a drop ceiling and skylight I would like removed and replaced respectively, and roof to be re-tarred since I’m already renovating.
I would like of a 3/4s wall that separates kitchen and dining room to be removed. The opposite wall to the kitchen is also a 3/4s wall I would like to be a complete wall. I was hoping to install some sort of HVAC system, and make some other changes but again, depending on the cost of the project I’m not sure if I can.
Do I need a “gut renovation” or maybe just a partial gut? I know I went into great detail, but the generic NYC renovation sites (Sweeten) didn’t cover some of the specifics I would like done. My next step is to consult an architect but I would like to know ballpark what this would cost with slight customizations.
Sorry for the rambling!
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
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uchenna
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
Hello
If you are looking to speak with an architect about your renovation, please feel free to contact me at mph@polyarch.studio
We are based in Boerum Hill, Brooklyn and specialize in renovations.
My best,
Polly Horne, RA
www.polyarch.studio
cate | 5 years and 7 months ago
I get to about 300,000 for everything not including wet rooms, plus $120,000 for wet rooms, not including architect and filing fees, surprises, or 10 to 20 percent in reserve. (I might have left out the new flooring on two floors.) Rough back of envelope estimates.
jen-kg | 5 years and 7 months ago
I hope this works out but be aware that you can end up uncovering a lot of things you may need to fix or replace and that could eat away at your budget.
chinyere.ezie | 5 years and 7 months ago
I always tell our clients create a wish list detailing everything you would like done and then walk through your building with competent contractors who can then provide a ball park breakdown of pricing ( plus / minus 10%) on the work you would like performed. By having a approximate budget you can then add or subtract based on your financial situation or the amount of funds you feel comfortable borrowing. With the revised breakdown list you can then approach Architects and have them develope a set of drawings based on your budget. This will avoid the lengthy drawn out process of creating drawings only to find out after the bidding process you are away over your original budget and now it is back to the drawing board to redesign and rebid the project while incurring more Architects fees.
jazzwalk | 5 years and 7 months ago
We did a renovation where we direct bought appliances and other things to try and keep costs down. I cannot imagine that you could get it done for less than 500K.
cate | 5 years and 7 months ago
P.S. Sometimes it can be better to get a specialist for some items. This would have to be before the contractor starts their work. For example, when we did an exterior renovation, in retrospect I wish we had gone directly to a mason for the brick and foundation work instead of a general contractor, who on the other hand is brilliant with kitchens, baths, and indoor carpentry. It’s not that the contractor didn’t do satisfactory work but it could have been better, faster, safer and SO much less expensive.
cate | 5 years and 7 months ago
That’s right, a cash out refinance is what you ideally want. I’d say start interviewing architects, let them know your budget, let them know you’d like to aim for a $500K renovation (if you’re comfortable with ultimately spending, say, $700K). The right architect will know the answers re permitting/existing conditions/layout and also what to do with the extension and know a suitable engineer. Then the architect will draw up three options for you — inexpensive, medium, expensive — and bid them out — and the bids will be structured so you can eliminate this and that to get to your budget, like a Chinese menu. Good luck with everything and keep us posted.
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
My 500k-700k is all in, not just renovation costs but contingencies, attorney to review contract, architect, and permits. It’s in “decent” condition as per the engineer’s report but that’s now two years old. I’ve had contractors say I couldn’t get this done under 500k or 600k. I have a picture of the architect designs, this is what the layout originally looked like. I’ve had a bank appraisal done so it was fine. I think they called it a cash out refinance. I’ve been waiting for the deed so I wasn’t able to actually get the mortgage. [A260B124-A760-448B-AD57-E18749916AD8](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:tiDn:a260b124a760448bad57e18749916ad8.jpeg.jpg)
cate | 5 years and 7 months ago
Very interesting Bklyn_11228, thank you for the update. More advice: If at all possible, make sure the house is in the proper condition to qualify for a regular mortgage, do not get a construction loan. If you qualify for a regular mortgage, just get one — you are taking money out, you don’t need to tell anyone why, just say it’s for “investment purposes.” End of story. House should appear to be in standard condition, with no holes in the walls, and bathrooms and kitchens appearing to be working, etc. Is the boiler functioning? If the condition of the house is very extreme (roof doesn’t exist, bathroom is a hole in the ground, etc.) then you will have to get a construction loan, also sometimes known as a 203K loan. These are slightly more costly and come with a lot of structure: You will need plans, and the bank will release funds in stages as work is completed, not before. As for cost, I agree with the other posters this sounds like something between 400-1 million depending on scope and size of house. Nothing in the 400-1 million range is “low end,” so don’t worry about that. (You do need a skilled architect and an experienced and trustworthy contractor — that will ensure quality.) How much it costs, ultimately, doesn’t have that much to do with finishes, because the labor is the biggest expense and the labor is (broadly speaking) the same whether you use a $1 or $100 part — but the cost has a LOT to do with scope and size. Nothing you have described sounds especially unusual for an old house in Brooklyn. In fact it sounds like it’s in pretty decent condition. More typical is they need all their plumbing and electric completely redone and all the wet rooms as well. (If, in addition to all that, they also need a long list of other expensive items, that can be daunting. And BTW needing to replace electrical and plumbing does not mean a house is a gut.) What is the exterior material and is it in good condition? (Also, you don’t need to do EVERYTHING the inspector says — only the red flag items. Inspectors always say everything is worn out if it isn’t brand new, but that’s not the same as saying it actually MUST be replaced NOW.) $700K is tons of money to renovate, say, a 20×45, three story house in Brooklyn. It is certainly enough to include HVAC. I would aim to spend much less if I were you, perhaps start off with $400-500K, and reserve at least 10 percent above whatever you finally budget and get into contract for, because you may encounter surprises that will be costly. Here’s some more info in case it is helpful: https://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/renovation-costs-kitchen-bathroom-brooklyn-house/
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
So there’s no Certificate or Occupancy on file and they can’t locate anything off site but put in a request. I will need a mortgage to renovate this house it’s the only way I can afford to do so. If I for whatever reason can’t secure the mortgage, (when I was going through the processes it seemed okay, but I needed a signed lease and contractors designs which made no sense to me), I will need to sell. That’s why I’m trying to get an idea on costs. I don’t want low end. It just doesn’t last.
cate | 5 years and 7 months ago
My two cents: Don’t rely on an architect for cost estimates. And please excuse me if you already know this and are planning on it, but you can take out a mortgage on the house to fund renovations. As long as the current configuration is viewed by the DOB as legal/permitted, you will save a ton of money if you leave everything in place and don’t do anything requiring you to pull an Alt-1 or Alt-2 permit. Most of what you describe is not that big of a deal. I agree you might manage to do it all for $400K if you’re lucky and don’t encounter expensive surprises. It’s not a gut, although you might gut the wet rooms. (Re those floors that need to be replaced, why? Are they original wood floors that can’t take one more sanding because the nails are showing? Or an unacceptable material? Don’t replace just because an inspector said they need to be — it’s an aesthetic decision that is up to you and what you want. Anyway, if they can stay you’ll save money there.) Be sure to get an architect with lots of experience with all these things, especially unsatisfactory extensions and r eplacing them. Note: You can “repair” various aspects of the extension without a lot of fuss but if you tell the DOB you want to demolish and replace the whole thing all at once, then you’ll need proper permits. (I know of a similar case where the extension was unheated and needed to be made airtight, which required a new foundation and repairing or replacing the walls and roof. ) In any case, be sure to consult an engineer before you do anything with the extension — as your architect will also advise you. A new layer on an existing flat roof 20×45 plus mudroom roof, a couple vents, and a skylight cost us $6,000 a few years ago. Re the stairs, risers moving out of place can have many causes, including that the house is sinking/settling a bit somewhere. In any case, I’d have a stair expert over to take a look and give an estimate rather than rely on a general contractor for that particular item. (They’ll probably be cheaper, faster, and able to match old parts exactly.)
southsloppy | 5 years and 7 months ago
fyi, not all C of Os have been scanned / are available online. Mine isn’t. When i went to the DOB they were able to track it down pretty fast (less than 5 minutes) and got me copies for a couple of bucks.
Lurker | 5 years and 7 months ago
@MDR yeah that’s not the case with I-Cards. We also have one for our 2-family, which has only ever been a 2-family, built in 1910.
To me what you’re describing is effectively a gut. For 3 floors, new roof, new HVAC and and electric and plumbing, and NOT doing structural work like ceiling beams, new decks, new basement floor (which I bet you’d end up wanting to do) I’d think you should budget 400k for a low-end job but done by the book with a legit contractor and arch/engineer. Add more if you need to change Cof0, and do windows, have crazy asbestos issues, need a new foundation or basement floor, new structural supports or beams in the basement, etc. Also count on this taking more than a year and also that your taxes will double afterwards. You may have unwelcome discoveries, like you need a new water line (existing could be lead), natural gas (which is problematic currently in much of NY) upgraded electrical service, and you’ll want to check out your sewer line.
jen-kg | 5 years and 7 months ago
This sounds like anywhere from $500k-$1M to me depending on specifics.
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
@MDR There is an I-Card on our house which was never used as more than a two family. The I-Card is for two units (with a roomer), DOB lists it as a one-family. We have an LNO.
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
This seems very promising, but I don’t know how you can get dob to recognize it if it’s not in their files. A copy might be in the dob folder. It’s probably time to talk to a pro. Another resource could be to go to homeowners night at dob and ask the examiners what they think, but I doubt you’ll leave with a final answer. I use he as a generic singular, thanks for clarifying your pronoun choice.
Let me offer one more thought. You want to know if the project can fit your budget. You may be tempted to ask contractors to put a quick price estimate on your job to see if it is feasible. I do not recommend this. Make them sharpen their pencils and be patient. If they have to rush a bid it will be higher.
Please keep us posted on what you decide to do and how it’s working out. I think this is an interesting one to following.
crownheightsliving
in General Discussion 5 years and 7 months ago
I have this saved from my mom’s house – perhaps now the Certificate of Occupancy is more discriptive but this is pretty vague. It literally just says two family home. Also for the record, I’m a “she”. [CO](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:PtqD:co.jpg.jpg)
hkapstein | 5 years and 7 months ago
MDR, if he wants to move the apt from the top floor to the garden floor, is that a change of use? Usually the CO says which floors make up which apts.
MDR | 5 years and 7 months ago
i-cards were only used for multifamily buildings (3 or more) so I don’t think you’ll find that here. The CO is only an issue if owner wants to change the use.