Rear wall insulation and siding

Familyhouse, we are also considering adding insulation to a coated brick back wall. Did you undertake the project, and if so, who did it, what did you use, how did it all turn out? Thanks for any information.

casey.mullin

in Exteriors 1 year and 7 months ago

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gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Hi, We are planning to repair and thorocoat the brick rear wall of our house. I am wondering if we should add insulation and new siding on top of the brick instead. We would replace windows at the same time. Has anyone done this? Would any good mason or GC know how to do this properly?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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so you are thinking of thorocoat which might give it a sort of stucco look but you would consider siding. i can understand siding because the insulation they use under it can be good (not all of it is good). i used to install siding (in the 1980’s on suburban wood frame houses; never on brick) and had to take a look to see how they would apply this to brick. it appears to me they will apply furring strips to the brick to nail the siding to. now, perhaps they have a way to nail celotex sheets up to the brick and then nail the siding over it (that was the way we insulated the wood frame houses, when the customer went with Cadillac insulation). but whatever you do when you apply siding to brick, it appears they will be “shooting” something into the brick. that is the way i used to apply drywall to brick interiors; i would use a power hammer to nail furring strip to brick walls and apply the drywall to that. the problem with this is these nails splay the brick and leave holes in the wall; if you wish to undo this years later, you will have a damaged brick wall. and siding does not last forever. it might last your lifetime but if your kids inherit the house, they will be looking to remove it at some point and maybe no replace it.

i think if i were to do this – and i have thought about it for the back of my own brick row house, i would apply that fake stucco. it is built up over styro foam insulation. now, years ago and in certain regions there were issues with this product/process. it had moisture issues, particularly in the south east. but i see a lot of this stuff going up here in queens and it all appears to be in good condition, after 10 or 15 years, so perhaps we do not have the condensation issues here in the north east or in the past 30 years (the problems i know of were on product installed North Carolina in the early 1990’s. by the late 90’s problems were appearing) the manufacturers made changes to the product/process.

steve
www.brownstonehomeinspection.com

cate | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I would not do either one. I would simply repoint the brick (using appropriate mortar for the brick so it doesn’t spall). I think you will be amazed by how repointing stops the cold from coming in. It worked for us. One other thing: On the interior, caulk any gaps to stop cold infiltration, such as between baseboards and plaster, and especially in the joints of wood paneling under and around windows. This makes a huge difference. (Reasons why the two options you mention are not recommended: Insulation and siding will make the surface much too thick, encourage termites, and create a mess with multiple points of potential failure that will be difficult to unwind. Putting insulation on top of brick is not the proper way to do things, and also probably won’t actually make you any warmer. Air will still penetrate the layers particularly if the brick has not been repointed, and on top of that, water can get beneath the surface and create huge problems and deteriorate the brick even further. As for Thorocoat, it is not recommended as it can cause the brick to fail.) For more in formation, see Brownstoner’s article on maintaining historic brick here: https://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/brooklyn-brick-historic-how-to-repair-repointing-soft-mortar-spalling-painting-maintenance-tips/ and also the U.S. Parks Dept standards and briefs on how to maintain brick on old houses here: https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1739/index.htm

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Hi both, thank you for the replies. The house already has several coats of what I believe is thorocoat. I had read about some people add rock wool and some kind of stucco or siding to finish it, but it seems like it will be hard to find someone familiar with that.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I read cate’s reply and have been thinking about investigating this further to see if using these modern applications are all around bad or if the issue is more about the experience of the people performing the work.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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The term you’re looking for is “eifs insulation” A layer of Styrofoam, usually 2 inches is adhered to the wall, followed by mesh, a base coat, and an acrylic based finish coat. You’ll see this on most new construction buildings. Rock Wool can also be used instead of styrofoam, however in these parts, everyone is more comfortable using styrofoam.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you green thinker.

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you for looking into this further. Something like this project looks like a good reference. Do you all think they just glue the panels to the bricks?
https://passivehouseaccelerator.com/articles/the-a-r-t-of-the-restore-burt-street-properties

jimcornell55 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I don’t think styrofoam is safe. I read that it’s not good for the environment. Green thinker, good idea to use Rockwool.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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The project you linked to isn’t a good reference. Makes no sense beyond there being less of a mess on location. In a normal eifs install, the whole wall is primed with a substance that also acts as a waterproofer. 2’x4′ styrofoam panels are then adhered with thinset onto the wall, the styrofoam is staggered. Once the whole wall is done, the styrofoam is shaved so it’s a smooth, relatively level surface. A plastic mesh is then put on the styrofoam, followed by a base cost and finally the finish coat. This process creates one continuous surface.

Problems arise with eifs when it’s installed on a wood structure. Wood structures need to breath. There is always some level of moisture in wood, possibility of water/moisture getting into the wood after installation. Eifs doesn’t let anything in, and it doesn’t let anything out. Thats when issues of rot/mold happen behind it.

To a lesser extent brick needs to breath as well, since it can suck in moisture as well. Ideally the eifs is installed when it’s completely dry or the brick has the ability to dry from the inside of the s tructure. The installers of eifs do leave bit of a drainage/air gap behind the styrofoam, it’s also possible to order styrofoam that has precut groves to allow for any moisture to escape. This is also the correct way to install it on a wood structure, however i’ve heard insurance companies want nothing to do with wood houses covered in eifs/stucco in general, regardless if you explain to them it was done the correct way.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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That article you posted say they use a combination of adhesive and mechanical fasteners. I can tell you this from experience that modern adhesives are sometimes stronger that mechanical fastening but the problem is how to support the product until the adhesive dries. This happens a lot with many vertical applications of wall coveringbproducts. Sto lite must have a website.

Billhays, right? Back in the early 90’s i heard a lot of concerned people complaining styrofoam. I had always assumed they had changed the manufacturing process or something because we don’t hear about it as much anymore.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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As for a recommendation, “Smart Roofers NY” I’d say they are the best in the area. Seen how they work, top notch.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Ok, the sto lite says it is for wood frame not brick. To green’s point, they claim the sto lite breaths.

The issues i had heard about the problems with the styrofoam had occured in southeastern nc where there were installing it circa 1990. All on new construction. By year 2000, moisture issues resulted in lawsuits with the manufactuers claiming it was the fault of the applicators and vice versa. Not sure what the outcome was and if it was faulty manufacturing or installation. Probably a lot written about it.

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you very much to everyone for the advice and explanations. I agree I don’t like the sound of styrofoam glued to the house. I’ll check Green’s recommendation and check with the people who did our roof replacement a couple years ago as well since we were happy with them.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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It’s not the glue that you’re thinking of. It’s the same “glue” that keeps your tiles on your bathroom wall. The installers throw on 6 “blobs” onto the back of the styrofoam and press it onto the wall. The suction force itself keeps the styrofoam in place until it fully sets. It’s not coming off once set, however it can be also screwed into the wall for redundancy. The screws do create somewhat of a thermal bridge though. But i doubt it effects the energy performance of the system by much.

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Do you know if rockwool can be adhered to brick walls in the same way? Do you think this type of project is worthwhile? We know we need to fix up the back of our house and I didn’t want to pass up the opportunity to make the house more comfortable and efficient at the same time. Thanks.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Given the scope you’re describing and the condition of the existing wall I would highly recommend working with an architect to come up with the best solution and the proper details. When you’re changing the depth of your exterior wall and replacing windows you need to make sure that the openings are correctly detailed so that the entire facade works as an integrated unit to shed water away and resist drafts. This is not a straightforward project that any GC could take on and effectively execute. It will be more expensive but this is an extremely important part of your home and if the work isn’t done correctly it will cost you a lot more down the road in repairs and headaches.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Given the scope you’re describing and the condition of the existing wall I would highly recommend working with an architect to come up with the best solution and the proper details. When you’re changing the depth of your exterior wall and replacing windows you need to make sure that the openings are correctly detailed so that the entire facade works as an integrated unit to shed water away and resist drafts. This is not a straightforward project that any GC could take on and effectively execute. It will be more expensive but this is an extremely important part of your home and if the work isn’t done correctly it will cost you a lot more down the road in repairs and headaches.

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Given what maggie has said, i am thinking a lot about this and want to add this: i never see this get done on old houses in brooklyn. I see it get done on 1920s queens houses over here where i live and in my long experience the people over here do not always do the right thing with their money and homes. I would definitely consult with third party professionals before talking to installation contractors who are only interested in selling jobs.