Report: Red Hook Streetcar Network Too Costly
Streetsblog and The Daily News have stories that explore how a DOT study says a proposed streetcar system in Red Hook would be costly and difficult to implement. Streetsblog notes that the study says the streetcar line would “only create 1,822 new daily transit riders” but cost around “$176 million, with another $6.2-7.2 million in…
Streetsblog and The Daily News have stories that explore how a DOT study says a proposed streetcar system in Red Hook would be costly and difficult to implement. Streetsblog notes that the study says the streetcar line would “only create 1,822 new daily transit riders” but cost around “$176 million, with another $6.2-7.2 million in annual operating costs.” There’s still going to be a public meeting about the study in May, but its suggested “short-term improvements” for improving transit in the area include revamping the intersection at Mill Street and Hamilton Avenue to increase and improve access to Red Hook; possibly making service changes to the B61 line and adding new bus shelters; and putting in a pedestrian refuge on Clinton Street and Centre Mall. Meanwhile, the Daily News has this quote from Red Hook Civic Alliance Co-chairman John McGettrick about how Red Hook transportation could quickly be improved: “An alternative they could do in the immediate future would be to provide bus service to Manhattan via the Battery Tunnel.”
DOT to Red Hook: No Streetcar For You [Streetsblog]
Red Hook Trolley Would be Folly [The Daily News]
Photo by sillygwailo.
short buses.
Ikea did it to help themselves.
But they are a private sector organization grounded in efficiency and common sense, not a many-headed public sector quagmire of bureaucracy and red tape.
I’m not even going to debate. The MTA rightly has higher priorities than a major infrastructure addition for Red Hook.
I’d aim for a bus that goes directly to Manhattan…or even a cab share stand like the one on the Upper East Side to get to Wall St and it could be implemented for nothing. It would just take a car service company willing to take the fares. I bet many would make the $4-6 payment per day.
By Minard Lafever on April 21, 2011 11:52 AM
“I have never visited another large city in America, Europe or Asia where the major arteries are perpetually being torn up and rebuilt.
Even after major earthquakes, other cities seem to be able to rebuild quickly and get roads and trains back on track asap. But in NYC, without any earthquakes, our roads are always a mess. Our trains are always a mess.”
Minard- it’s likely that NYC’s roads need constant upkeep because of the sheer density of the city. It’s small and compact, and the roads get a lot of use. We should be happy that the accommodation of the automobile was brought to a halt at the end of Robert Moses’s tenure. Take a visit to Los Angeles if you’d like to see might have happened to New York. Wow, they sure do have pretty roads in L.A.
As far as our “trains always (being) a mess,” I’m not sure what you’re talking about here either. What other city has such an extensive, affordable and efficiently running subway system?
The MTA cannot ever be trusted… but surface Trams would be a natural fit in Brooklyn… that’s why the Dodgers were called the Dodgers… this infrastructure all worked here for decades before they were dismantled.
A Tillary to Flatbush run to GAP would make sense, as would a major stretch of Atlantic.
And Red Hook could work if it were part of a larger system. As well as many other earlier sections.
It would be nice to see Brooklyn move into the future, instead of relying upon our creaking subway and BQE. Even Robert Moses must be rolling around, Bastard that he was.
DOT/URS have been attempting to use certain misleading technical jargon, to confuse the issue of what the REAL Red Hook streetcar operating costs would be. The true unit of measure for a streetcar, or any other transit mode, is “Vehicle Cost Per Hour”. Of course, DOT didn’t allow this unit of measure to be used in the URS study. For a real number, lets look at our sister City, Philadelphia. Its highly “instructive”, that URS used Philly streetcars as a “case study”- but then URS didn’t use SEPTA’s own operating cost documentation…Compare the following figures, with the current NYCT bus operating cost of $160 per hour (National Transportation Database):
Philadelphia Streetcar Hourly Vehicle Operating Cost: $47 per Hour.
Source: SEPTA Planning Document, 2009. See page 58 here: http://www.septa.org/reports/pdf/asp10.pdf.
Let’s now use some simple arithmetic:
$47/Hour x 3 streetcars (on a 2 mile start up route) x 12hours/day x 365days/year = $617,580 PER YEAR
Let’s now take another current streetcar example: Memphis, TN, where “hourly vehicle operating costs” are about $78/hour (National Transportation Database):
$78/hour x 3 streetcars (on a 2 mile start up route) x 12hours/day x 365days/year = $1,024,920 PER YEAR.
Where the Heck did DOT/URS get their totally OFF THE WALL (+$7 million per year) operating cost numbers from? Could it be- DOT and URS have purposely sabotaged this Red Hook streetcar study- or maybe they just cant do 2nd grade arithmetic?
Read my own streetcar Operating Cost findings research and formulas here: http://www.brooklynrail.net/images/new_brooklyn_streetcar/streetcar_vs_nyct_bus_operating_cost.pdf.
As for the ridiculous “wide turns and narrow streets issue†(streetcars originally ran on all these streets), if new American made streetcars were purchased ($800k each), this “issue†would simply vanish. Its certain “gold plated” foreign made streetcars that cause some urban geometry problems- such as the type URS is currently peddling here in the U.S…
Think about this: who precisely did DOT and URS “design” this streetcar line for? Clearly not for the benefit of the public…then for who? Maybe for the Bernie Madoffs, Ivan Boeskys, Michael Milikens, and certain “gold plated” foreign railway equipment suppliers? We have a name for this here in Brooklyn: GRAFT !
It would only make sense to put a trolley in if first one could demonstrate that a bus along the proposed route was actually used. It’s one thing to say, “build it and they will come.” It’s quite another to prove that they will come. Changing or discontinuing a bus route is pretty easy, but what do you do with the $176 million investment if it’s grossly underused? If the MTA had surplus funds or if they had gotten a reasonable price for Atlantic Yards, then perhaps we could talk about trolleys. I think trolleys look great, but there are priorities.
short buses
powered by quick-swap batteries: http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution
you know, to get that lucrative Federal grant money for green transpo initiatives (if there’s any left)
More bang for the buck.
You guys don’t have to go to Europe to see this in action – you can cross a much smaller body of water. They have street-running light rail in Jersey City. It seems to work pretty well there.
You are probably right that a tram on 4th Ave would just duplicate the subway that already exists.