House of the Day: Stuy Heights Grandaddy

HouseHunter,

If you want 5000 square feet on $1.3M bucks, you’re going to have to make some BIG tradeoffs. There are no perfect solutions to that, and I don’t think there’s any point in getting annoyed at people on this blog for pointing that out. (Apologies if I misread you, but you sounded kind of ticked off.)

That said, my suggestions/questions:

* Wherever you buy, I am a BIG believer in buying fixer-uppers. When you are on a budget (as I was when I bought), being willing to put in sweat equity or deal with inconvenience is one of the few good ways to multiply your resources.

* How much space do you really need? If it must be 5,000 sq ft, you’ve got very few options. Personal preference is subjective, but certainly people with 3 kids thrive with much less. Must it be a brownstone with details? prioritize, prioritize…

* Not to start a flame war, but from my armchair experience, many of the up-and-coming brownstone neighborhoods — Stuy Heights, Clinton Hill, PLG — have gotten a lot of attention lately and seen huge price appreciation. Therefore, you’re being expected to pay for several years of appreciation that haven’t occurred yet, and thus — not to say the houses aren’t gorgeous, they are — there are fewer real bargains to be had. You are more likely to find a (relative) deal in a neighborhood like Sunset Park or Bay Ridge, that does not have as beautiful housing stock but also has not been hyped quite so much lately. (Admittedly, this is my totally amateur opinion.)

* are you budgeting in private school? do good local public schools make a difference? if you’re banking on public, again, there is a remarkable public elementary school in Sunset Park and several in Bay Ridge. (But, tho I can’t quite tell, it sounds like you are not willing to go that far out.)

* It’s all about priorities you haven’t totally laid out. If top priority is getting a big and gorgeous brownstone — and you are willing to stay a long time and aren’t concerned about a volatile market — then Stuy Heights or PLG or Crown Heights are all good ideas. If you’re willing to trade some aesthetics and closeness to manhattan for (imho) a somewhat better value in the current real-estate sweepstakes, I’d suggest checking out Sunset Park, Bay Ridge, maybe even Greenwood Heights.

* I agree with pretty much all of CHP and babs’ advice, especially taking the time to do drive-arounds.

Househunter: I agree basically with the above advice. My words of caution are that you need to really think about what is most important to you and your family. The cheaper areas aren’t as good as the pricey ones, that’s why they are cheaper. The houses may be the same, but the communities aren’t. While you want a big brownstone, a frame in the south slope may actually give you more of what is really important to you. Maybe not. Only you can say.

Also, please don’t fall for the “the store are coming” line. Five years ago friends of mine bought in Lefferts Manor and said that since prices were booming and so many people were moving in from the Slope, it was only a matter of a year or two until Flatbush had great stores and cafes. Five years later, there is one new cafe (which opened up this month), and my friends now understand that it is a matter of another 5-10 years before stores arrive. More importantly, they understand that stores won’t change the more serious issues. But that’s okay with them–and maybe it is with you too. My point is simply to figure out what really matters to you before you buy. Good luck.

Hi HouseHunter. Given your budgetary constraints (is your $200K in savings after the proceeds from sale of your apartment or before?) and current income level, I’d say $1.3MM would be a stretch, except possibly for the rental income to be derived from renting out an apartment in a 2-family. Have you also considered that the ongoing upkeep expenses on a house are going to be more than in an apartment? You may want to revisit that savings number post-closing.

And there really aren’t any such properties in BH or PS or even Cobble Hill — they’re all at least $500K above your max, when they do become available.

Other possibilities could include Carroll Gardens or Prospect Heights (these are mostly brownstones or brick, not limestones — does that matter?), but even there you’re pushing it, and there’s a much smaller inventory, but also Fort Greene and Clinton Hill (again, mostly brownstones and brick). Are you willing/able to do restoration? A fixer-upper will go for a lot less, obviously. Fort Greene is of course more expensive, but has many more transportation options (the part near Atlantic Ave at any rate) than Clinton Hill.

And I’m amazed at the negativity of certain comments on this thread re Stuyvesant Heights. I lived in Fort Greene in the early 1990’s, loved it, and always felt safe (I’m a not-too-big white woman; yes, I had a boyfriend, but he wasn’t always with me!), and Stuyvesant Heights reminds me of nothing so much as Fort Greene at that time — it’s a historic district of absolutely gorgeous architecture (with a goodly number of limestones this time) inhabited by a mix of old timers and new comers, both with the same goal: enhancing their neighorhood. New shops and restauruants are springing up all the time, particularly on Lewis Ave. (nary a fried chicken store in sight!), Fulton Park (right by the A train at Utica) is beautiful, recently redone, and safe (way safer then Fort Greene Park, or even that little triangular park by the Lafayette Ave C stop, was when I lived there), and the A train is an immense advantage over even Fort Greene — you’re at the Fulton St. stop in Manhatan in 11 minutes from there — while everyone at the C stops in Clinton Hill and Fort Greene watched you speed by.

Crown Heights also has totally gorgeous limestones and brownstones (although, alas, no historic district yet), and is convenient to Manhattan via the 3 or 5 trains.

Finally, I’d also have to recommend my current nabe, Prospect Lefferts Gardens — lots of limestones, a historic district, same distance to Prospect Park as Park Slope, and 20 mins to Union Square via the Q. The best thing here is that you can get a big limestone one-family for under $1MM — maybe in this case you wouldn’t need the rental income? There’s a nice one for sale on Maple St. right now, by its owner, for $930K. I looked at it last week. It’s beautiful and has a new roof. And this block of Lefferts Manor proper is amazing — lots of kids (of several different races and nationalities) playing outside, and everyone knows everyone else. There are some two families in this price range also, but not on as desirable a block. The “two families” where I live (Lefferts Ave. bet Rogers and Nostrand) are considerably smaller, and although they are (and have been) used happily by two families, to my mind they’re a bit tight if you’ve got (or are planning on) more than one kid. But they go for about half what you’re talking about spending.

So my advice to you would be 1) (if you haven’t already) talk to a mortgage broker, get yourself pre-approved, so you’ll know going in how much house you can afford and what you should spend and 2) explore all these neighborhoods — go to open houses, ride the trains to see how long it takes to get where you’re going, etc. Don’t just act like tourists — in for the day, just to look around, but not actively concerned by the practical aspects. Talk to the people who live there. Most people in all of these areas have invested a considerable amount in their neighborhoods and are proud of them and always pleased to talk about them. 3) find a good real estate broker, who’s familiar with these areas and also knows the ins and outs of buying townhouses, a very different transaction from buying a co-op or condo, and can help you in your search — as a buyer it costs you nothing and can save you a lot, both financially and emotionally.

Good luck!

HouseHunter, don’t let anyone’s negative comments sway your point of view. YOU’RE going to be living there, not them. I bought a very average 2600sq ft brownstone in the hood for over $700k last year. Some here will say I got ripped off. But I love the neighborhood, love my detailed house and I can get into the city in 12 minutes (Nostrand- A). The restaurants will come!! If I had the $1.2m to spend, I’d say this house is a great deal. Would you prefer to live in a 5000 sq ft gem or a frame in the South Slope? You folks who are saying you can get a place in one of these “pristine” neighborhoods (where, by the way, I SOLD and left because it was too pristine!)….pull up a comparative house and then we’ll talk.

EL-04 – Pleas assist us in some comparative shopping. I’m in the market for a new house. I’m married with wife, have two kids and we are soon expecting our third. We are looking for a large townhouse where we can grow into (not interested in living in a condo or coop building). We recently sold our small apartment in Manhattan, have about $200,000 in savings and presently live on a joint annual income of about $190,000. We can only afford to put 10% down and understand that we should set aside about $30,000-$40,000 for closing expenses. Our goal is to leave about $50,000 in savings after our purchase so our price range for a new home is roughly $1mm to $1.3mm.

We can’t afford Manhattan, we’re not interested in the suburbs, and the “other boroughs” simly do not appeal to us. In our view, it’s either downtown Brooklyn or bust.

Please show me where someone can purchase a 5,000 sq. ft. two family limestone on a landmarked block in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope? We would love to buy it. We’ve looking extensively on line but cannot find such a property. Can you recommend a broker?

Our clear preference is to live in a large beautiful townhouse on a tree lined block in downtown Brooklyn but our broker tells us that given our savings and budget constraints we’re effectively priced out of most top tier brownstone neighborhoods. As a result, we’ve limited our search to areas such as Bed-Stuy, Stuy Heights, Lefferts Prospect Garden, Crown Heights and eastern Clinton Hill.

We understand that all of these “up and coming” neighborhoods are predominantly black but are considered “high crime” areas. The neighborhood doesn’t have to be perfect as we are looking for value with room for further appreciation. However, this is a major decision for us and we’re trying to take all factors into consideration before taking the big plunge. How should we proceed and where do you think a growing family such as ours can realistically live in downtown Brooklyn.

I viewed the above listing and was really excited about this weekend’s open house. The place looks very promising and from what I hear it exist on a historic and architecturally significant block. But now you have me thinking otherwise. Can you or anyone else for that matter provide further guidance? You said that there are better deals elsewhere. Where?

Everyone on this blog appears to have opinions on where not to live but no one ever offers any guidance on where people such as myself can actually afford to live given real life budget constraints and current market conditions.