Restore pine floors or install new oak ones? Don't trust my flooring guy.
I’d but some pine planks from your local H Depot type place then experiment with different dyes and stains until I got what I wanted
davo1
in Renovation 11 years and 8 months ago
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31 replies
pocketdora | 11 years and 9 months ago
I just bought a place with two staircases and 1500 sq ft of floor that was all covered in carpet or laminate, under which was hundred year old heart pine. I accepted an estimate of $14,000 from what I believed to be a fairly high-end flooring company, to cart away all the carpet and laminate and restore the pine floors and stairs and generally make it all lovely. I was warned that if the floor was in terrible condition there might be extra repair charges, but was given the impression that a worst case scenario would be a total cost of about $20k for everything to look great. I went with these guys because they expressed passion about restoring floors to their original state rather than covering over them, and that’s what I wanted. When they ripped up the carpet, at first the flooring guy said everything was looking really promising. He found there were rows of nails in the floor every 18 inches, but said it would look like a “nice pattern”. I left that day feeling positive. Next day, I returned to be told that actually the floor is in terrible shape, the nails are a massive problem, and it would be much better to install new oak floor throughout. Also, he said it was the best idea because it would “only cost a couple of thousand more” than restoring the pine, because on reflection he’d have to charge more for the restoration than he estimated. This was because he said there were more repairs than he thought (fair enough I suppose, although it didn’t look that bad to me) and because of the need to do an extra sanding to sand off the paint (this I don’t buy – he was well aware the pine was painted before he did the estimate – we had seen that from lifting up a corner of the carpet, and we had actually discussed the possibility that there was lead in the paint – so I had assumed this was included in the estimate). Mostly, he kept saying, “we COULD restore it but I don’t think you’ll be happy with it”. Whereas I think the truth is he had perhaps underestimated the job (eg forgetting the paint) and had got in trouble with the boss, and was now trying to sell us something with a higher profit margin. He said new oak floor throughout would raise the total cost of the job to about $23k, vs the new $20k estimate for restoring the pine. He said things like “these pine floors were never meant to be exposed” which I found shocking as it was the exact opposite of what he’d claimed when I hired him. We were very disappointed, but gradually came round to the idea it might make more financial sense to get new floors. So we turn up to discuss new floors, and he casually throws in that we have to pay another $8k for plywood so that the floors can be laid in the correct orientation. We nearly lost the plot at this point, since a $15k job had now turned into a $40k job. I don’t know what to do. The problem is, I just don’t trust this guy any more. We’ve already paid a $6k deposit, of which $4,600 was estimated for demolition costs so I suppose they believe we owe them that much at least (despite the fact the demolition only took a day rather than the three day’s work he had said it was). Do I : A) Walk away and get someone else to quote for restoring our pine? B) Spend a fortune installing a new floor I never wanted? C) Force him to do the restoration job he was hired for despite the fact he’s made it pretty clear he doesn’t want to do it and I have no faith any more he will do it well, or that the costs won’t rise further?
bedstuytownhouse | 11 years and 9 months ago
40k? For 1500 sf of flooring and, what, one or two sets of stairs? I’m spending that to move our kitchen to the parlor floor. I would RUN, not walk on this guy. I’ve never worked with him but there is a guy called Carlos who receives rave reviews on this board. Search Carlos floors/flooring in the archives and you’ll find his contacts.
curated | 11 years and 9 months ago
Without seeing the floors I can’t comment on condition of the pine and what it would look like if re-finished…BUT for 1500sf of new oak flooring it should not cost you 40k. If you were to install new oak flooring then the correct method would be to remove the existing pine, lay down new 3/4″ plywood subfloor and then install the new oak. Cost for those 3 items (demo of pine, new plywood, new oak) should be about 25k.One thing to keep in mind is if you go with new flooring you may have to add a quarter round molding if you are keeping the original base moldings. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/curated
slopette | 11 years and 9 months ago
This doesn’t directly answer your question but a friend of mine just did the same, exposing her pine floors, and they look amazing. I also did the same in my kitchen. Yes there was damage, but that’s part of the charm if you’re into this sort of thing. I’d stick to your guns — I would never be happy with new oak flooring, and from your letter, it sounds like neither would you.
MDR | 11 years and 9 months ago
I agree with curated. If you have time, tell the floor guys you need to think about whether to install a new oak floor or not. The get some other quotes and evaluate whether it is worth it to switch contractors. Since the floor is uncovered, the new contractors will be better able to see the conditions and give a firm price. Try to stick with the heart pine if you can! It would also be possible to pull up the heart pine, repair the floor and put down plywood, then install the pine, although that would be very labor intensive. Good luck.
xchx | 11 years and 9 months ago
This didn’t include stairs, but I got about 1,500 sq ft of flooring refinished (with some parts replaced) for less than $3,000\. They did a great job. Jose at Better Wood Floors.
pocketdora | 11 years and 9 months ago
Thanks all of you. From what you have said, I am going to get some other estimates. curated, that’s the first time I’ve heard the suggestion of removing the pine sub floor and replacing it – that seems a bit extreme, wouldn’t it be okay to lay new wood over it? From what i understand, heart pine is good stuff; seems a shame to replace it with plywood. Anyway, I think we will find someone who will restore the pine. The pine is the sub-floor, by the way – there’s nothing but beams underneath! The molding is a good point. If we stick with the pine we will have to do something about the gap where the skirting board has been cut. The contractor rather unhelpfully said “I don’t know how you’re going to deal with that.” Here’s a picture of the newly uncovered floor with a little part sanded, in case it helps.
pocketdora | 11 years and 9 months ago
Also, to be fair, 40k included some herringbone pattern in a couple of rooms (I figured if we were spending so much we might as well explore doing something really nice.) The price they gave to do it all “normal” was 36k. (Both prices include the $4,600 demolition and $8k plywood).
curated | 11 years and 9 months ago
From the photo you posted the floors seem to be in good shape. The paint/residue above makes it a messy job but those floors should be able to be restored. Feel free to contact me with any questions. We’ve restored plenty of these floors and know how to handle molding issues….your flooring guy should have been able to also. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/curated
rh | 11 years and 9 months ago
Call my guy! Desmond Harmon He did an amazing job with my pine sub floor that was painted and glued. It doesn’t look like new but hey, that’s because it’s not. Also, if you get the right crew, you may want to consider carefully taking up the subfloor to reuse after you’ve installed plywood. We did that in some areas of our house where the joists needed to be leveled. You won’t be able to save all of it, but at least you can salvage some.
sethamin | 11 years and 9 months ago
I’ve got a quote to repair, sand, and finish about 700 sqft of my old pine subfloor from a high end, reputable firm, and it was about 6k. This was for floors that were not painted; had no carpet or laminate over them to demo (though they did have plywood); and it was to be finished with Bona Traffic, which is probably the best (and most expensive) poly finish you can get. Those numbers seem in line with your original quote of 14k. But your later quotes to install new oak flooring seem kind of insane. 8k to install 1500 sqft of plywood subfloor? Plywood (non-veneer) or OSB should cost <$1/sqft. And if you're going to lay it on top of your existing subfloor, you can probably get away with 1/2" or even 1/4". How does laying down 1500 sqft of plywood cost 6k+ in labor? If you do end up refinishing the pine subfloor, here's some free advice: be very careful about staining. Pine does not take stain well at all, and dark stains in particular can look really bad. The pine takes the stain unevenly (some parts absorb *a lot* more stain than others), and you end with a blotchy mess. Wood conditioners help some, but are not a panacea. Your best bet is to forego any stain, and just do a natural finish; the old yellow pine subfloor finishes with a very nice golden hue. If you must change the color, look at using a gel stain or a dye instead of an oil stain.
bkk | 11 years and 9 months ago
As stated you need to drop this guy, that is crazy expensive, even with the additional items mentioned. I think you are right in that they are being self serving and don’t want to deal with the extra work involved with removing the paint. I would strongly suggest you refinish the existing floor based on the attached picture… You just have to be ok with blemishes that invariably show from 100 years of use. I used Carlos on my pine subfloor and was really happy with the results. Also, I have a friend that used the Jose mentioned in this thread as well and was very pleased.
Bond | 11 years and 9 months ago
The nails are a problem if he plans on using a drum sander as they will bust the sandpaper. The solution is to take a nail set and bang each one under the floor level a little bit. It’s tedious work and you end up with depressions that catch dust and/or grit. So yeah, the nails are a pretty big annoyance. Not the end of the world, but certainly annoying. If you want, they can use a circular sander and it won’t slow them down too much since it’s pine, but then you’ll end up with very shiny nail heads because the sander will polish them and the poly will make sure they stay shiny. It doesn’t look like you have heart pine, but rather eastern white pine (hard to tell from the photo, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t heart pine). That’s an issue because white pine doesn’t wear as well. I’ve seen white pine floors that have grooves worn in the high traffic areas after only a few years. Heart pine has a Janka rating (a system to test hardness in wood by how much force is required to press a steel ball into the wood) in the high 800’s-low 900’s, comparable to oak, while white pine is in the low 400’s. If it’s Douglas fir or long leaf pine (again, hard to tell from the photo) you’re looking at mid 600’s, so not terrible, but not great. I’m not a big fan of refinishing most sub-floors, they just wear too quickly and then you end up re-finishing every couple of years. If the guy is talking removal and replacement of the stair treads, I’d make sure to find out how he is re-attaching the balusters and finishing the end of the treads. Hopefully he is notching for the balusters and running a small finishing strip with a bullnose on the end to cover the end grain. If the company is going to do everything the right way and really obsess about the details, and depending on the oak flooring that you are using (5″ white oak quarter sawn is a heck of a lot pricier than 3 1/4 red oak) the price seems a bit high, but not insanely so. The fact that they didn’t see potential problems ahead of time makes me question their overall professionalism. Good luck with the project, I hope you’ll post an update and let us know what you decided to do.
brucef | 11 years and 9 months ago
Some of the above comments have to be weeded through carefully. People are often well meaning but inexperienced. You are being treated un-professionally by a contractor who is over charging you in a dishonest way. I don’t take a job if I don’t know what I’m doing. Call me old fashioned, but his malarkey is offensive. Yes, new T&G plywood underlayment would be needed to install a new oak floor. You don’t mention the degree of deflection or “crookedness” of your floors. New sub floor gives a chance to correct slope if any. I happen to prefer level floors, but have lived with slope for years. More than quarter round may be required to meet doorways and baseboard. New sub-floor would be twice 3/4″ versus original floor of 1 1/4″?? I suspect patching things up with a tradesperson who has been dishonest already is unlikely. I suspect a letter from your attorney may be warranted. We get a lot of referrals from Angie’s List and we care what people say about us. He may not care.
Putnamdenizen | 11 years and 9 months ago
It doesn’t sound like you are going the DIY route, but when I redid my parlor pine underflooring 12 years ago, my brother and I pulled up all the pine (which was about 2 inches thick), repaired the floor joists, installed plywood (glued and nailed), then put the pine down on top. Very solid. We should have ripped the old tongue and groove boards (made them narrower and more uniform), as we were left with gaps which really aren’t satisfactorily dealt with. Cost: my relationship with my brother….
Townie | 11 years and 9 months ago
Your floor looks exactly like mine did. Brown paint varnish layer with nails on the surface. The 18″ rows of common nails were added at some point to reduce the movement of the floor boards. They are not the correct nails and probably don’t do much to stop the squeaking?movement? If its covered in tiny holes you may have had a layer of parquet flooring over the top of the pine. Might be able to remove the nails and putty the holes and then sand. As mentioned above you need to be concerned with the softness of the wood especially if there are any places where the wood is dried out. If you can stick your fingernail in the surface and leave a mark just thing what a pair of high heels, a dropped toy, or dog’s claws will do over time. As for your contractor not sure how he could have bid on the job without seeing the entire floor with the carpet removed completely. $1000 would have accomplished this including disposing. My wife and I ripped up about 1200 sqft of orange shag in a few hours, cut it in small rolls and tossed it out to the curb.
daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 9 months ago
This is a truly ridiculous price. Since he doesn’t want to do it the way you want it, wlak away. Call Jose. Many people here ave used him, myself included. He’ll give you an honest price and an honest assessment
daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 9 months ago
Yes, $4,600 for a day of demolition should have been a big red flag.
slopefarm | 11 years and 9 months ago
I agree with the general driection of the comments. I will add my agreement about the tricky nature of how these old pine floors take to various finishes. We tested about 5-6 stains and all looked horrible and we went with a clear finish. We ended up with a mix or amber to punpkin tones, with a lot of variegation, depending on how much water or abuse the floors were exposed to. Also, as you may end up with strong colors in the floor, don’t commit to things like paint colors or kitchen cabinet colors until you see the finished floors. We are glad we kept our pine floors; they are beuatiful but do come with baggage. Good luck.