Restore pine floors or install new oak ones? Don't trust my flooring guy.
I just bought a place with two staircases and 1500 sq ft of floor that was all covered in carpet or laminate, under which was hundred year old heart pine. I accepted an estimate of $14,000 from what I believed to be a fairly high-end flooring company, to cart away all the carpet and laminate and restore the pine floors and stairs and generally make it all lovely. I was warned that if the floor was in terrible condition there might be extra repair charges, but was given the impression that a worst case scenario would be a total cost of about $20k for everything to look great. I went with these guys because they expressed passion about restoring floors to their original state rather than covering over them, and that’s what I wanted. When they ripped up the carpet, at first the flooring guy said everything was looking really promising. He found there were rows of nails in the floor every 18 inches, but said it would look like a “nice pattern”. I left that day feeling positive. Next day, I returned to be told that actually the floor is in terrible shape, the nails are a massive problem, and it would be much better to install new oak floor throughout. Also, he said it was the best idea because it would “only cost a couple of thousand more” than restoring the pine, because on reflection he’d have to charge more for the restoration than he estimated. This was because he said there were more repairs than he thought (fair enough I suppose, although it didn’t look that bad to me) and because of the need to do an extra sanding to sand off the paint (this I don’t buy – he was well aware the pine was painted before he did the estimate – we had seen that from lifting up a corner of the carpet, and we had actually discussed the possibility that there was lead in the paint – so I had assumed this was included in the estimate). Mostly, he kept saying, “we COULD restore it but I don’t think you’ll be happy with it”. Whereas I think the truth is he had perhaps underestimated the job (eg forgetting the paint) and had got in trouble with the boss, and was now trying to sell us something with a higher profit margin. He said new oak floor throughout would raise the total cost of the job to about $23k, vs the new $20k estimate for restoring the pine. He said things like “these pine floors were never meant to be exposed” which I found shocking as it was the exact opposite of what he’d claimed when I hired him. We were very disappointed, but gradually came round to the idea it might make more financial sense to get new floors. So we turn up to discuss new floors, and he casually throws in that we have to pay another $8k for plywood so that the floors can be laid in the correct orientation. We nearly lost the plot at this point, since a $15k job had now turned into a $40k job. I don’t know what to do. The problem is, I just don’t trust this guy any more. We’ve already paid a $6k deposit, of which $4,600 was estimated for demolition costs so I suppose they believe we owe them that much at least (despite the fact the demolition only took a day rather than the three day’s work he had said it was). Do I : A) Walk away and get someone else to quote for restoring our pine? B) Spend a fortune installing a new floor I never wanted? C) Force him to do the restoration job he was hired for despite the fact he’s made it pretty clear he doesn’t want to do it and I have no faith any more he will do it well, or that the costs won’t rise further?
pocketdora
in Renovation 11 years and 9 months ago
31
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31 replies
davo1 | 11 years and 8 months ago
I’d but some pine planks from your local H Depot type place then experiment with different dyes and stains until I got what I wanted
pocketdora | 11 years and 8 months ago
UPDATE: We fired the first company, chose another, and the show is finally back on the road. Very happy so far with our new guy (I might name names in a later post, depending on how everything pans out), who within half an hour of starting had sanded a test patch of floor and talked me through four finishing options. I am in a bit of a quandary since despite what several people on this forum have said about the dangers of going dark and the beauty of natural pine, we just like the dark look better. We found a photo of another house that has door frames and baseboards exactly the same color and style as ours, and floors that had been finished dark (and rather unfashionably shiny). We’d like ours to look like that. Based on the attached picture, do any of you have any further advice for us? I think the Special Walnut (in semi-gloss, I guess, rather than the matt one on our floor now) would be quite close, but my husband is worried it might be too red. Thanks for your help!
NeoGrec | 11 years and 9 months ago
Sorry to hear about your problems — yup, your flooring contractor is ripping you off. Walk away. Just wanted to say that lifting the pine sub-floors and installing plywood underneath creates a very stable, quiet floor with no movement that will wear better over the long term.
slopefarm | 11 years and 9 months ago
Slopette’s variegation looks strange to me, as if the different boards are different types and ages of wood. More typically, one would expect the variegation to follow the grain and grain lines and be more gradual — areas near knots and nails darker, areas that absorbed mroe water darker, etc. I’ve never saeen an old pine floor that looks like Slopette’s picture. ALl the more reason to do some testing on your floors. As the car ads say, “your mileage may vary.”
slopette | 11 years and 9 months ago
Natural, water based satin finish.
bkk | 11 years and 9 months ago
Slopette’s looks like a satin finish with no stain. Hard to tell oil or water based from the pic. I did satin waterbased polyurethane (BONA Traffic) with no stain and I am very happy with the results. The floors were done two years ago and no signs of wearing (an issue with the older waterbased, supposedly not with the newer versions). If you are concerned with having pale floors you might want to consider oil-based as it has a more amber color and will become turn more amber over time. The waterbased on the other hand is a lighter color and more closely resembles the color of the wood before the poly is applied. For me I wanted the lighter look (not sure if this if this would classify as pale for you).
pocketdora | 11 years and 9 months ago
Hmmm. Slopette, did you stain your floors or is that natural? And did you use an oil finish? I’d be more than happy with a mixture of tones. I could be fine with the floors a different color than the woodwork, but the only thing I really don’t want is very pale floors.
brokelin | 11 years and 9 months ago
Completely aside from the issue of how evenly the boards will take stain, do think hard about staining your floors the color of your woodwork…it strikes me as being all too much of the same brown (or red, depending on your woodwork color) when the floors and the woodwork are the same color. I think you may want some contrast. I had pine subfloors that were finished without stain in my last place, and I loved them. (Woodwork there had been painted, so I can’t comment on the contrast there, but did have medium brown oak trim with unstained antique yellowed old oak parquet in the place before that, and I liked the contrast between floor and woodwork a lot.) My pine floors weren’t hard pine, they dented whenever I dropped something, but they were lovely…everybody remarked on them when they walked in. I do belive this was largely because of the lack of stain…they had that yellowed look, also variegated with much darker, more reddish patches…but I think pine floors look best with no stain, they have a luminous look to them. I don’t believe they were finished with poly – the finish didn’t flake or peel or wear like poly, which led me to believe it was one of the more penetrating floor finishes, and I liked it a lot better than I ever liked poly.
slopefarm | 11 years and 9 months ago
Fine to get advice, but you should really test a few finishes and see what looks good. It’s not just what kind of tree the floors came from, but what they have been exposed to over the last century — how much moisture, sanding, abuse, etc., that will affect the color.
pocketdora | 11 years and 9 months ago
Thank you all so much, this is incredibly helpful. Slopette, I think your floors look gorgeous. If ours end up looking like that we’ll be delighted. By the way the verdict that they are heart pine came from the current people we are using, who took a plank away to test it. Very useful conversation about the staining. We have a lot of nice woodwork and had been thinking of staining the floor the same color, but perhaps natural is wiser. We’ll see what advice we get: I’m seeing two new guys today – both are people mentioned in these comments. I will keep you posted.
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
Also re how to refinish, I suggest you stick with four coats of satin water based poly. Anything shinier will make the floors vary in tone. We stained ours (test first) and it came out lovely and even with a walnut tone. (Think we used Minwax Golden Oak.) You definitely need someone experienced with floors to do pine or stains. Ours treated with a sealer first to make the floors take the stain more evenly.
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
We removed laminate and refinished about 2700 sq feet of soft pine subflooring, including staining and four coats water-based poly, as well as sanding the staircase by hand, for about $4,800 ($300 of which was the cost of hiring the dumpster to dispose of the laminate). The soft pine subfloor is not a hardwood, so best to avoid dragging furniture across its surface, slamming things down onto it or walking around in spike heels. So far this has not been a problem. Also our subfloor has all kinds of damage and nails showing, none of which seems to detract from its beauty. Everyone remarks on how beautiful the floors are. It is extremely noisy — that is the one thing a new floor would probably help — might have to replace some joists to correct that too.
slopette | 11 years and 9 months ago
That’s a good point about the strong colors; here’s a picture of our refinished pine subfloor. I happen to love the variegation but it’s not for everyone. Pardon the cat.
slopefarm | 11 years and 9 months ago
I agree with the general driection of the comments. I will add my agreement about the tricky nature of how these old pine floors take to various finishes. We tested about 5-6 stains and all looked horrible and we went with a clear finish. We ended up with a mix or amber to punpkin tones, with a lot of variegation, depending on how much water or abuse the floors were exposed to. Also, as you may end up with strong colors in the floor, don’t commit to things like paint colors or kitchen cabinet colors until you see the finished floors. We are glad we kept our pine floors; they are beuatiful but do come with baggage. Good luck.
daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 9 months ago
Yes, $4,600 for a day of demolition should have been a big red flag.
daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 9 months ago
This is a truly ridiculous price. Since he doesn’t want to do it the way you want it, wlak away. Call Jose. Many people here ave used him, myself included. He’ll give you an honest price and an honest assessment
Townie | 11 years and 9 months ago
Your floor looks exactly like mine did. Brown paint varnish layer with nails on the surface. The 18″ rows of common nails were added at some point to reduce the movement of the floor boards. They are not the correct nails and probably don’t do much to stop the squeaking?movement? If its covered in tiny holes you may have had a layer of parquet flooring over the top of the pine. Might be able to remove the nails and putty the holes and then sand. As mentioned above you need to be concerned with the softness of the wood especially if there are any places where the wood is dried out. If you can stick your fingernail in the surface and leave a mark just thing what a pair of high heels, a dropped toy, or dog’s claws will do over time. As for your contractor not sure how he could have bid on the job without seeing the entire floor with the carpet removed completely. $1000 would have accomplished this including disposing. My wife and I ripped up about 1200 sqft of orange shag in a few hours, cut it in small rolls and tossed it out to the curb.
Putnamdenizen | 11 years and 9 months ago
It doesn’t sound like you are going the DIY route, but when I redid my parlor pine underflooring 12 years ago, my brother and I pulled up all the pine (which was about 2 inches thick), repaired the floor joists, installed plywood (glued and nailed), then put the pine down on top. Very solid. We should have ripped the old tongue and groove boards (made them narrower and more uniform), as we were left with gaps which really aren’t satisfactorily dealt with. Cost: my relationship with my brother….
brucef | 11 years and 9 months ago
Some of the above comments have to be weeded through carefully. People are often well meaning but inexperienced. You are being treated un-professionally by a contractor who is over charging you in a dishonest way. I don’t take a job if I don’t know what I’m doing. Call me old fashioned, but his malarkey is offensive. Yes, new T&G plywood underlayment would be needed to install a new oak floor. You don’t mention the degree of deflection or “crookedness” of your floors. New sub floor gives a chance to correct slope if any. I happen to prefer level floors, but have lived with slope for years. More than quarter round may be required to meet doorways and baseboard. New sub-floor would be twice 3/4″ versus original floor of 1 1/4″?? I suspect patching things up with a tradesperson who has been dishonest already is unlikely. I suspect a letter from your attorney may be warranted. We get a lot of referrals from Angie’s List and we care what people say about us. He may not care.