Help needed with understanding the renovation process, permits etc.

Hello dear brownstone owners. This might be an odd question, but we are first time house owners, and in dire need of some advice. I’m looking for someone who has done a renovation on their home (landmarked) and who would be like to talk us through the process and pitfalls of their undertaking over lunch in a restaurant of your choosing (it’s on us of course!) There are so many questions about contingencies, quotes, permits etc etc, we’re completely overwhelmed and looking for some help.

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Guest User | 7 years ago

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Bathrooms and kitchens replaced with fixtures more or less in the same spot.

gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Thanks Chemosphere and Workisfun– it’s good to hear of more people who have accomplished a reno with a moderate budget. We too are in a landmarked district, which will make windows more expensive but we aren’t planning any other facade work.

workisfun | 7 years and 9 months ago

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I second chemosphere. If you have the time, tenacity, and interest, your work and coordination can certainly save money. We did it this way not only to save money, but to know exactly what we were getting for our hard-earned (debt) money that we did spend. It is stunning to learn how many uninformed contractors there are. Time and again, I would follow up on their prescriptions with other contractors, manufacturers, associations, etc, and learn that I would be throwing money away to do what they wanted to do. Eventually, we landed some competent and creative (and some excellent) professionals. Just a very few mistakes were made along the way to finding them. Saved high tens of thousands of dollars.

chemosphere | 7 years and 9 months ago

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I purposely looked for houses that needed work but not a gut renovation. We also ruled out houses that needed drastic layout changes. We looked for a house that could be renovated without permits and without an architect – bathrooms and kitchens replaced with fixtures more or less in the same spot.
We got a house similar to the curbed reno, 2 floors + cellar, 2200 sq ft, and replaced 2 kitchens and 2 baths for about $120k. No structural except for reinforcing some joists under a bathroom. We put a new layer on the roof. I was onsite everyday and did some demo, sanding, painting, hauling, easy stuff. I went to Lowes and the tile and plumbing places and bought all the materials myself.
The house is not going to be featured on a magazine or a website, but I’m proud of it and it’s structurally sound with new electric and plumbing.
This type of reno was more often covered on sites like Brownstoner about 10 years ago when there were more DIYers and you could get sub $1m row houses. Now the stories here are people who work all the time and hire people to do everything. Nothi ng against those types, but that’s not the only type of renovation there is.
The original poster in this thread is talking about a landmarked house so that’s a whole nother ballpark of neighborly scrutiny and $$$. In fact if you were a really tight budget I would advise against buying a landmarked house for that very reason. But still people should know that lower budget renovations are possible.

freespirit | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Yes, Cate, I read the whole series of articles and the house is small, they did a lot of work themselves, there wasn’t a lot of work required on the 2 floor and my understanding is that they got some stuff for free because they wrote the article (like the floors). A true gut reno is much more expensive:) I actually doubt even 300k would be sufficient. All last bids I’m getting (for small things like fence) are in the tens of thousands.

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Freespirit, yes, the $180 in the article above included everything: Materials, labor, architect, and filing fees. Pretty awesome, right? House is small, so that might explain it. Two floors plus English basement and two kitchens and two baths altogether. Updated all mechanicals (including heating) but no exterior work and no structural — house was in great shape. I agree $300K is a realistic number for what you (and I) are doing.

freespirit | 7 years and 9 months ago

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I am wondering whether $180k in the article above includes the cost of kitchen cabinets/bathtub etc or that is just work alone? I’m pretty frugal and we didn’t buy high-end things (Kitchen was from Ikea, vanities too), no marble tiles either and we ended up spending close to 200k for 3 floors+ basement (including cabinets and sinks and appliances), but not the outside of the house. The quality of our contractors was meh. I got a bid recently to redo the siding of my house and rebuild the porch (I have a stand-alone Victorian house) for $110k. So I think $300k is the bare minimum (that’s all i’m trying to say)

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Gemby, if you have access now and are waiting for team and all that, then gosh yes go ahead and start stripping. An excellent idea! Leave the linoleum on the floor to protect it.

slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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re: the 10 things you should know list: It is an excellent list. There are at least 10 more things you should know in the comment thread. Don;t skip on #10, btw. Definitely secure the exterior.

gemby | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Thanks again to everyone for all the great info in this thread. I appreciate the curmudgeonly attitudes! It seems like if you don’t have unlimited funds you can easily get yourself into trouble. So I will speak for all of us who don’t, and say we appreciate the realness.

Lurker— thanks for your explanation of the project creep. It all makes sense and there are lessons there. I think I need to consider if I’m being realistic about not needing to replace certain systems.

Cate— thanks for these links, and for the perspective that it’s possible to renovate for less than 250 sq/t. I have a question regarding “strip at the beginning” from the “10 things you should know list”. Is this something that’s typically folded into the work the GC bids on, or would it be better to do before the renovation process begins? It will take us time to line up a team and secure financing so would it make sense to go ahead and start stripping the mantles now?

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Here are some useful posts on things to know, costs, etc.:
Top 10 things to know when renovating an old house
http://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/renovating-an-old-house-top-10-things-to-know/
Renovation costs
http://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/renovation-costs-kitchen-bathroom-brooklyn-house/
An example of a down to earth renovation with an architect and a licensed contractor that cost $180K. https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/1/16035940/renovation-diary-row-house-ridgewood

Guest User | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "3"
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samgo I am going through one right now demo starts this week I have already done all what you have stated perhaps we should chat off line, which contractor are you using? did you do a conventional loan or a 203k?

slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Yes, we’ve pretty much hung Dante’s “Abandon All Hope” sign above the whole Brooklyn home reno thing. At least now I know why Brooklyn has so many churches and bars.

CarmenR | 7 years and 9 months ago

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I love how curmudgeonly we all sound ITT. Bringing the realness!

empathie00 | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Lurker, do I know you? How did you know the details of our reno process so perfectly? 😉

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Caveat: I’m assuming three floors — if your place is bigger, it will cost more.

cate | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Gemby, you should be able to easily do your scope of work with an architect and experienced and licensed GC and come in at 300K. Not moving things around is a big part of it. An architect is very helpful for design, establishing the scope of work, and creating a good bidding process and having connections to good contractors even if you are not filing an alt-1. (We are using one and nothing we are doing requires an alt-1.) Especially if you are doing central air, you should hire an architect to design it so you don’t see the ducts — everything should be hidden in the core of the house/bathrooms/closets/etc. not going through rooms in hideous soffits. An architect can charge a flat design fee or a percentage of the total cost, depending on what makes sense for the project. Our particular issue was none of the things you mention — it was mostly due to leaks, some hidden and some not. Look diligently for someone who is maybe starting out but has practical experience with townhouses in Brooklyn and whose design sensibility you like. Also if your systems are more than a cer tain number of years old and you’re opening the walls, replace all the plumbing and electrical, don’t do it piecemeal. (Except heating: You can keep the heating pipes and radiators if the system is in good condition.) It’s cheaper to do everything at once and all together. Be very clear you want to keep the details, which means cutting channels for electric and plumbing, not gutting whole walls. Re keeping the details, it has been my experience that they are not difficult or expensive to keep, as long as you aren’t gutting. Depending on your situation, sometimes you can use a specialist (stripper, plasterer, etc.) who is affordable but perhaps not as fast as others because they have a small crew or work with just one helper. Stairs can also be repaired. If you find new treads are unavoidable, you can paint them and keep everything else (railings, newel post, etc.).

Lurker | 7 years and 9 months ago

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You asked, so here’s my experience: our intended GC bolted so we found someone who seemed like a good option (don’t rely on Angie’s list–go for personal reocmmendations and inspect the work and google the hell out of them) but came in way lower than we expected. The budget bump was definitely underbiding on his part but also normal project creep, which if you’re doing a “partial” reno that is really major at heart and includes systems is pretty easy to encounter. We were dumb noobs.

For instance, if you’re renovating all your kitchens and baths on multiple floors, there’s a good chance you may as well replace all your plumbling or a lot of it. If your place is like many pre-war buildings, you may find there is one electrical outlet per room and the lines are cloth wrap or tube and wire and you may have an ancient fuse box with 100 amp or less service. Well, you’ll need a service upgrade and new wiring. Add some zeroes. And you want a new stove that has a fancy 75k btu burner plus a gas dryer and the second stove and also the boiler is oil and 50 years old and so w hjile you’re their you need to upgrade your gas line. And what the heck, the windows are all plastic or vinyl and gapped and don’t stay up, and if you’re fixing the wall and molding why do it on a crappy 70s replacement windows? That’s 20 windows. And it turns out under your tile flooring is just a gapped subfloor, so you need new flooring on 2 or 3 floors. Oh, and to do most any of the above (besides windows and floors) requires filing plans, which requires hiring an architect or engineer to design them and file them and go through permitting and inspections. That’s not cheap nor easy.
Your project may not involve all or any of those things, and they may be not so drastic or simply in your budget. But it’s pretty common to have the domino effect of “since we’re going to the effort of replacing X, why don’t we bite the bullet and do Y now so we dont’ have to rip up all we just did in 5 years when it dies/leaks/catches fire.” There’s also great satisfaction in the end knowing you’ve rejuvenated your presumably ancient building well and should be off the hook for repairs for a while. Until you need a new roof and insulation 😉

slopefarm | 7 years and 9 months ago

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Sounds sensible. You really don’t want a GC who underbids the job. If you are using an architect who is independent of the GC, s/he can tell you if the bids are comparable apples to apples, or what seems to be driving the price difference. You don;t have to worry about low bidder if all the bids are close. If there are big differences, then beware.