Expeditor fees for an alt-1 and ADA bathroom requirements for a 2-family
Hi everyone, we just bought our first home recently: a 4-story in Bed-Stuy. I _thought_ I was being smart in getting a place with an existing 2-family COO (which is how we intend to use it), but unfortunately the COO explicitly states a layout of 2 duplexes (I didn’t realize they could have that level of detail–ugh) while we want garden rental + triplex, so it seems an Alt-1 is required. We’re still very early on (basically just started with the architect), and I have 2 different questions:
1. Just got the expeditor fee proposal and it’s coming in at 17-18k. Is that reasonable for a “full service” expeditor (ie doing all filings, coordination, and permits for an Alt-1)? It sounded a little high to me…but there aren’t a ton of precise numbers about this service, and what numbers I could find were from ~10yrs ago.
2. Our architect is really pushing for an ADA-compliant bathroom in the garden level rental. The current bathroom that’s there is definitely too narrow to be ADA-compliant, but otherwise is fine and semi-recently updated. I thought a 2-family wouldn’t have A DA requirements (not to mention there’s no way the garden entry is ADA-compliant), but they’re saying that with an Alt-1 filing + given we’re doing work on that floor anyway (adding some walls because right now it’s all open) + since we plan on renting it out, it’s likely the DOB wants ADA compliance. Does that sound reasonable? Has that come up for others in a 2-family?
Any guidance, anecdotes, advice, even meaningless comments appreciated! There’s a lot to learn and not enough money to not learn it, haha.
DazednConfused
in Renovation 3 years and 2 months ago
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33 replies
DazednConfused | 3 years and 2 months ago
@Augustiner, appreciate the input and that’s what I initially thought, but after speaking to multiple architects (who had experience with prior townhome renos and/or consulted their expeditors), unfortunately I think this is going to be an Alt-1. At least, none of them seemed confident in getting it through as an Alt-2, and I didn’t want to possibly lose time and money trying to file as an Alt-2 and then having to revise to an Alt-1.
If there’s examples involving an existing COO with the right family designation but “wrong” floor configuration getting through a kitchen-addition renovation as an Alt-2 though, I’d def then go back to my architect/expeditor! Very open to that.
There is some good news on the ADA-compliance front though: after laying out my concerns clearly with my architect, they agreed and stated clearly that one- and two-family homes don’t have accessibility requirements. It seemed more a “good practice” that they felt passionately about. And I don’t disagree that it’s a good idea and prob a good investment…but budget. So we’ll be axing that from the scope of this initial renovation. I just wanted to share that back as it was very mentally relieving for me to hear it confirmed so definitely and maybe it’ll help anyone else with concerns now or in a future Brownstoner forum search.
Augustiner | 3 years and 2 months ago
You/ they should do everything to keep this an alt-2. after all, you are not changing occupancy an expediter worth their money would know a way around it. (Fee is steep and they obviously are not trying to save you money with a real life practical approach)
If you can get this done with an alt-2 then ADA compliance is likely not an issue, your property tax going forward will be lower, and you‘ll save yourself a lot of headaches.
DazednConfused | 3 years and 2 months ago
@cate:
“I’m surprised you can’t do an Alt-2 and just move the kitchen. People do that all the time without an Alt-1, as long as the number of units doesn’t change.” Yeah unfortunately all of the architects we spoke with were pretty convinced the DOB examiner would see the existing COO and point out that the designs don’t conform to the stated use. Sigh. I really regret not realizing this til after we signed the contract.
“I know someone who did their construction in phases to fit a growing family and in the second phase went from a two family to a one-family. but without changing the CofO and using only a n Alt-2 AFAIK” — yep that’s an option we want to keep open in the future as well! There’s a chance in the future the garden-level gets absorbed into single-family use…but we’d definitely try to avoid another COO change. We’re also phasing our renos due to budget–for instance, this reno will focus on the garden and parlor level but a later one will focus on the top 2 floors–and so that was a further argument in favor of tackling the Alt-1 now. We were thinking tha t even if we manage to skirt around the Alt-1 this time, somehow, it may be a looming concern in future phases.
Thanks for all of your comments; they’re very appreciated!
cate | 3 years and 2 months ago
I’m surprised you can’t do an Alt-2 and just move the kitchen. People do that all the time without an Alt-1, as long as the number of units doesn’t change. (Of course, as you point out, they may not have a CofO or an HPD i-card.) Maybe times have changed. The more you do, the more costly it will be and the more you will trigger high taxes in two years. But the current use doesn’t fit the CofO either. (I guess the DOB wouldn’t allow two kitchens or an accessory kitchen or kitchenette in the lower duplex?!) One thing good to keep in mind is to make sure your architect has lots of experience doing the specific thing you want to do — in this case, flipping the unit configuration and moving/creating a parlor floor kitchen in a two-family townhouse in Brooklyn. Here’s one more thought: I know someone who did their construction in phases to fit a growing family and in the second phase went from a two family to a one-family. but without changing the CofO and using only a n Alt-2 AFAIK — in the second phase, the second kitchen on the top floor became a bathroom. So sorry not to be more helpful. Good luck with everything.
DazednConfused | 3 years and 2 months ago
@Ithaca, jealous of the fees you were quoted. Seems our expeditor is about 1k more on both filling the COO application and issuing (3.5k and 3k respectively), plus DOB applications (those scoped and any additional) are $1750 each. Not great. But you’re saying it took 5 months to get any permits?
Honestly I feel like at this point I’m kinda stuck with this expeditor, but for future reference I’ll definitely be more upfront in asking architects about anticipated expeditor fees for the expeditors they work with.
@J: I’m really not convinced on my architect’s ADA concerns. I would love to see any example of a two-family going through an Alt-1 running into this problem but it doesn’t seem to come up at all. Think I’m going to have a very blunt discussion with them soon asking for the specifics of their concern and see what they say. (Not that I LOVE the existing bathroom–we just don’t have the budget to throw 10-15k around right now if we don’t need to.)
@cate: Ha I’ve definitely thought about it! But yes, we’d really like a kitchen on the parlor level, where none curren tly exists. Right now there’s kitchens on every floor BUT the parlor (yep, the old owners were using the house as a 3-family). The amount of additional cost and uncertainty with an Alt-1 vs an Alt-2 is really no joke though, and your question is making me seriously reconsider…but I’m pretty sure in the long run, it makes sense to do the Alt-1 now. I think.
cate | 3 years and 2 months ago
Here’s a slightly wacky question: I guess you couldn’t leave it as a double duplex but use it as a three over one? Guessing prob not because you prob want the kitchens on the garden and parlor floors. But I do sometimes see layouts that seem flexible.
irfan | 3 years and 2 months ago
Learning more than I ever wanted to know about ADA. This suggests 1 and 2 families are exempt from ADA for bathrooms at least. https://fontanarchitecture.com/bathroom-renovation-codes-nyc/
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
We bought a 2-family with no CO; we wanted to make it 1-family. We also are doing a gut renovation . Our expeditor’s fee schedule was
File and gain approval of Change of Use Application $2,200.00
Construction Application $1,000.00
Demolition and Construction Applications $1,800.00
If any more DOB NOW applications are required, their fees will be $800.00 each.
Issuance of Certificate of Occupancy $2,000.00
We also paid $1800 to have a contractor draw up a “bid” for what it would cost to rebuild the entire house; with that we were able to avoid the requirement for sprinklers.
After about 5 months we got permits for demolition and limited construction; we are hoping to get permits for a deck and modification of the back first floor wall.
irfan | 3 years and 2 months ago
My lay understanding is that there is no such thing as a requirement for an apartment itself to be ADA accessible. However there are certain requirements for common areas of new buildings. All that said, logically it would not make sense that a garden level apartment in an old building whose common area itself isn’t ADA accessible (eg one or more stairs down from street level, narrow doors ) should be subject at all to ADA. That doesn’t mean the law is logical, but one would think.
PS as I understand it, The ADA applies generally to publicly accessible areas not private ones like apartments themselves or houses.
Happy to be corrected by an expert. Again this is based on my own limited research.
DazednConfused | 3 years and 2 months ago
Ah, @mozeeatupu, do you have a source for that where I can read more? And do you know if that applies to 2-family homes? (Also fwiw, my project isn’t scoped–or budgeted, haha–to be a gut renovation.)
Also some more info now on the expeditor proposal: seems it’s more a “menu” of probable costs but in the course of the renovation, some of the items may not be needed. For instance, they listed out 4 separate filings/permits (for gc, plumbing, mechanical, and sprinklers) but some of these items may be de-scoped and the associated costs (2k per filing/permit) would then not be due. So I guess that’s a little better?
mozeeatupu | 3 years and 2 months ago
I thought for the first floor of a walk up the bathrooms must be ADA accessible when doing a gut reno.
DazednConfused | 3 years and 2 months ago
Thanks for the info! More data is always helpful; this stuff is so opaque. Everything you said sounded more in line with my expectations–expediting fee <15k, no need for ADA compliance. Sounds like maybe I need to push back a bit on the architect and expeditor....and yes, more advice welcome!
irfan | 3 years and 2 months ago
Thank you for posting these questions! Doing an alt-1 now in a brownstone. Expediting is in the 10k range but my architect has someone in house so that may be just a result of that. Just another data point for you if helpful.
We’re also doing 3 over 1, and the ground floor bath will not be ADA. I’m not aware of any obligation that a rental unit would need to be ADA accessible, especially in a historic building that is itself exempt. A google search confirmed my understanding but I’m no expert. Would have thought the architect would have designed an ADA bath if required considering how many of these brownstone Renos they do.
If anyone has more expert advice would love to hear.