what does replacing a waste pipe entail?
hi all — Our 110 year old waste pipe has a crack in it. The crack is in our cellar. Before I start calling plumbers and contractors to fix it, I’d love to know what the process of replacing the pipe entails – how long does it take, ballpark of how much it will cost, do we need to replace the whole thing (cellar, first floor and second floor), or can we just replace the piece in the basement for now? Thanks for any
kms_bkyn
in Plumbing 6 years ago
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46 replies
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
back to what dibs said about going into a trade – and I still see he is getting a couple of likes on his post; people like dibs and society say the right thing (it should be that way) but the reality is something else. I am going to lay something else out about having a mass of untrained trades people working in a place NY City. these low paid individuals spend a lot of time learning short cuts. these short cuts often do not show up the day they take them and I am talking about things we should be able to leave someone do without supervision. painting for instance. One of my most memorable instances was when I hired a “painter” a couple years back to paint. he went to use the paint without stirring it. for a long time I didn’t know what would happen if we do not stir finishes as my mother told me when I helped work on the addition my parents put on the house when I was 10 “you always stir the paint”. Like a good boy, I never questioned my mother and from that day forward, I stirred the paint. I hire “painters” here whose egos are so giant that they cann ot stand having someone tell them how to do their “trade”; I now know what happens when we don’t stir finishes and I see it all the time now when people call me to fix the finish a “painter” screwed up; in stains the colors stay on the bottom and the job will get darker as they move through the can and with paints and varnishes, the flatteners stay on the bottom so the finish goes on glossy at the start of the can and becomes flat at the end. this what these “tradesmen” taught me about finishes when I hit my late ’30’s and I never would have known if I had not seen it and called the manufacturers to find out what was going on. I tried to explain to this painter that we had to stir the paint. Now right here is the point of what I am saying and thank you all who are reading this far to get it: He told me “no one stirs the paint” (in addition to telling me I was difficult). this is the problem. this behavior becomes the norm and pulls what is acceptable down and as a result consumers are getting crap. this why we hear stories of people buying houses and things start going wrong a year after they move it. I try to explain to people how careful we must be with each step of the process (I did a pair of doors for a church and I am teaching one of the parishioners how to maintain the finish); that every step of the way we must struggle to do our absolute best or the entire job can fall apart later (with the church I am afraid the finish can fail or dust appear if he does not lightly sand the old finish or tack it); that kind of attention to detail is not longer heard of; these tradespeople are thinking as far as 5PM and that is it; no thought as to what will happen a year down the road. I had someone else tell me they do not use “primer”.
here is the problem with having this many “tradesmen” running around a city taking shortcuts. they can do the job faster, perhaps even half the time. so when someone comes along and offers up a higher price, the consumer has no understanding of why this is happening and many (not all) go with the lower price. keep in mind what I said about the insurance and all that a legitimate operator has to carry, and an honest tradesman cannot make a living in this environment; there really are too few customers willing to pay what it takes (that is why I only work on doors and won’t strip a door surround because some guy will do it for 15 an hour). the expected way for a tradesmen to work now, is to hire a bunch of people at 25 an hour, break labor laws (don’t worry if they are undocumented they will not complain to the authorities), don’t provide sick days or insurance and then provide them with intense supervision and suffer the resulting headaches.
the trades in the entire city are predicated on this model. and while savvy or experienced homeowners rise above it because they know they have to pay for quality, many people, especially homeowners in the outlying areas fall into this; I have literally had people (not in Brooklyn) call me a “gouger”. that’s because they have gotten used to have things done by someone making 20 an hour (these are the same people by the way who support trump and his wall; its a weird paradox; if we stop the in flow of people, you will pay more).
in this environment, I would never tell my child to go into a trade. not welding, not plumbing, not woodworking, and definitely not painting.
kms_bkyn | 5 years and 11 months ago
thanks everyone. We are currently doing work in our basement and will soon do work in our kitchen, so replacing the basement and first floor pieces won’t be too annoying.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
The only trade worth going into is electric as the enforcement from the dob keeps the shady operators out and helps maintain a level playing field. everyone is licensed and everyone carries insurance and everyone has to charge the same or they fold. this is the truth.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
part of the problem is, we make all these laws and then we don’t enforce them until someone gets hurt. The laws should be good as they “level the playing field” but there is no enforcement. and legitimate operators have to charge more to make a living and must comply or they face losing assets when something goes wrong. if master plumber read what I wrote above or what I am saying here, he would know exactly what I am talking about because he, like me, has to negotiate this every day and maybe that is why he is only doing consulting now.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
and dibs your comment about the shortage of barista’s is so sad but true. there is a trade off here. go to work for a low paid welding shop to learn without proper medical or disability insurance (no safety net) in case you get hurt with the hope something better comes along later (which it might) or take a less stress job with less chance of serious injury for the same crappy pay?
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
I’ve waited to see how many likes dibs reply got about kids going for a trade such as welding before laying out the grim reality about such an endeavor. let’s say I went to welding school now and worked for a year at $25.00 an hour to get some experience and in a year bought the equipment and set out to do this as a trade. I have a house, so I have to maintain medical insurance (in my case now its through my wife) as I cannot go down to the emergency room with a sob story and expect the taxpayers to foot the bill. i have to pay taxes (they’ll take my house if i don’t). i have to pay into social security. i have to carry insurance. i have to be licensed. if i hire people, i have to carry workmen’s comp because if i don’t i am breaking labor laws and if someone gets hurt the state will sue me and take my assests. what does all this mean? i have to charge a minimum for me alone, $150 and hour to pay these things and pay myself $50.00 an hour. what will happen if go to a job in Brooklyn and quote somebody $1500 for something that takes about 10 hours? th ey will get a quote from somebody who is new to the country and less established and pays his help $20 and hour and makes $35 an hour himself and provides no medical coverage, has no formal training, breaks a litany of labor laws and pays everyone including himself off the books. that guy might be able to charge 50% of what someone like i would have to, so the homeowner gets a quote for $750 and some of them will still think that is a lot of money. that is the reality of this situation.
ok, so short of setting out on my own, i can hope to get into a union. that’s limited. so i can go work for a non union shop. if i walk into a non union shop and try to negotiate 30.00 an hour (and what family man in NYC wants to work for 30 an hour?) with two weeks paid vacation, medical insurance, demand that they carry workmen’s comp, and a minimum of 6 paid sick days a year, they would laugh at me. they’ll hire someone who just arrived here for $30 an hour (probably less and they will force them to work overtime at straight pay), no vacation, no sick, no medical. and they guy will be happier than i would be because he does not pay taxes, he does not have to worry about medical insurance as he has no house for the hospital to attach if he gets hurt. that’s the reality.
i have worked with my hands all of my life and fully believe that men were made to work that way; no way would i send my son into a trade unless we were in a strong union environment and the rest of the populace understood the damage we are doing to our own lower paid or working class citizens with the mass influx of cheap labor. the low pay has pushed americans out. the political environment, specifically the democratic party, no longer supports workers and consequently, we have no one because that other party doesn’t care either (if they did they would not have set about gutting Obama’s health care plan – which no one could afford anyway- and instead of the tax cut they would have passed an infrastructure bill and put thousands to work on bridge and highway projects).
nobody reading this wants their child to take on a trade. trust me.
Guest User | 5 years and 11 months ago
We just had to replace the stack from the bottom of the second floor, through the parlor floor, through the garden level and then the entire horizontal run in the cellar – there were cracks and 2ft of very slow draining, immovable blockage that was more rusted pipe than anything else. Once out, we could see that the pipe was no more than .25” in some places. We were in the midst of a reno, but the walls had to be opened, brick removed and piping replaced. All walls were then refinished. The whole thing ran us $3800 all in. I’m realizing now what a fair price that was and it only further serves to help me appreciate our GC. Definitely try replacing a section and find a plumber who will do it in a manner considerate of the rest of the line.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 11 months ago
We replaced the waste pipe in our cellar about 3 years ago for approx. $800. It was a quick job, taking about half a day. Back breaking for our plumber but not complicated. The rest of the stack was new when we renovated 20 years ago and there was no impact on it.
daveinbedstuy | 5 years and 11 months ago
edg2103…if more young kids pursued a trade like welding they’d be far better off than wasting a lot of money on a superfluous college major. We would likely suffer a barista shortage though
tsgrlc | 6 years ago
stevecym: Absolutely. It can be done, but it’s not easy. Your best bet is to make friends with a master welder and call in a favor. You’ll find someone eventually.
My house came with some beautiful Eastlake door hinges, many of which had cracked into pieces from abuse. My father was able to weld them so I couldn’t even see the welding joint. I showed them to another welder I knew and he couldn’t believe it.
stevecym | 6 years ago
edge2013: a little back story here and some of the readers may appreciate this a lot of them seem to have an appreciation for history. I inherited an antique stationary farm engine that has been in my family for a century. they had giant saw that goes with it and they used it to cut wood. unfortunately my great uncle ran the engine without putting water in the water jacket and he cracked the cylinder. the block appears to be cast iron. the crack is hairline and the engine still runs, but pulls water into the cylinder when I put water in the jacket. the engine (Fairbanks morse) is financially not worth the effort but because it was my great grandfather’s, I wish to keep it. I have been asking everyone who knows anything about welding cast iron if there is a way to fix this and they shy away from the discussion as soon as I mention the welding part.
tsgrlc | 6 years ago
MasterPlvmber: Yes, I was referring to the ratchet cutter.
Obviously I’m an amateur, but everything I wrote above came from the experience of having to gradually replace 100% of the 130-yr-old cast iron soil pipes in my house. At first I called plumbers and watched them do it, but eventually I started handling it myself and don’t regret it one bit!
Master Plvmber | 6 years ago
I started writing a list of reasons why welding the pipe is a bad idea but I just don’t have the time. Practically speaking, it can’t be welded, and it’s not the way to handle it anyway. A skilled plumber will remove the bad section of pipe using whatever method deemed most appropriate. Among these are, yes, “sawzall”, ratchet cutter (which is what I assume edg2103 is calling a “chain wrench”), a grinding wheel, or perhaps melt out the lead from the original joints which causes the least vibration to the rest of the line.
tsgrlc | 6 years ago
stevecym: my dad is a master welder and he agrees with you. he’s welded black iron steam pipes, and even those are a pain to weld. cast iron is a whole other story. it’s a notorious pain in the ass to weld even if the cast iron is clean and rust-free. now imagine welding a rusted out 100-year-old sewer pipe! just the process of cleaning it before welding is likely to cause the thing to disintegrate.
tsgrlc | 6 years ago
If a plumber comes in, to replace a section they will cut it out with a reciprocating saw, then use rubber collars to connect a new section of pipe to the old pipes. If the section of pipe is straight and easily accessible this can be a 30 minute job. But plumbers won’t come out for less than $600.
I noticed many plumbers use reciprocating saws (“SawzAlls”) to cut the pipe. The vibrating action of the SawzAll can cause other sections to crack. A specialized cast iron pipe chain wrench or an angle grinder with a diamond blade don’t vibrate and yield much better results, in my experience. A lot of plumbers who use SawzAlls to cut cast iron don’t care because, hey, if the pipe cracks, that’s more work for them.
I agree with the “WaterWeld” suggestion. The stuff really works. I’ve used it to patch up pipes that would be a real pain to replace until I had time to swap them out, and it’s lasted as long as 5 years without any leaks. And it’s super-easy to apply . Still, it’s not as permanent a solution as replacing the pipe because it’s likely the pipe will spring a leak somewhere else in the next few years.
stevecym | 6 years ago
dibs, right but contractors tend to know the risks and still proceed.
daveinbedstuy | 6 years ago
> @stevecym
> contractors do things in their own homes that they would never do elsewhere.
I suspect most people do. LOL
stevecym | 6 years ago
i like to hear what master plumber would say about my welding steam pipe. contractors do things in their own homes that they would never do elsewhere.
stevecym | 6 years ago
Marjorie: I am not sure if waste pipe is ok to weld. as I said in my post, I welded steam pipe but that is a mild steel. I think waste pipe is cast iron and that is problematic.