Regulation Steam heat with Varivalves

I have a 4 floor brownstone with single pipe steam heat. The further up you go the colder it gets. Floor 1, where the thermostat is, heats up quickly and I suspect that it hits 72 so quick that the heat has barely started on floor 3 and 4. Can I install radiator valves to suppress the amount of heat coming out of the floor 1 radiators so more heat is pushed to the upper floors? I’m thinking of installing Varivalves on the top floors to open up the radiators, but I would also need a way to suppress the floor 1 radiator output. Any good recommendations?

crownht888

in Heating 9 years and 9 months ago

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ellenlourie | 9 years and 9 months ago

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You have unbalanced steam system. So, you need to do steam balancing. The geographical principal of venting through radiators is completely wrong. You need to vent risers, headers and radiators separately and in different manner. Thermostat location must be picked very carefully. -away from heat sources -in the coldest room of the house, having radiator and outside wall. -away from draft -on the inner wall partition Avoid steam pressure over 1.5 psi. keep it between .5-1.5psi range. There also other considerations. find professional specializing in steam systems. And be ready to accept the fact it might not be a plumber.

steam_man | 9 years and 9 months ago

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Now THAT was funny!!

Master Plvmber | 9 years and 9 months ago

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My post got deleted. Yes, that’s my business. I’m trying to transition away from the day-to-day operations at Gateway Plumbing and Heating and into a full-time gig as owner-operator of 72F LLC Steam and Hydronics Consulting. It’s mostly what I’ve been doing for GPH the last decade or so anyway and it’s what I’m best at.

slopefarm | 9 years and 9 months ago

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LOL, steam man. I wouldn’t make you any money — just self-help then throw up your hands and call a plumber. No, this is the guy you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slibJ52yoc

steam_man | 9 years and 9 months ago

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slopefarm, Let me know when you’re ready to leave your job. You can run a residential division for me! I love it.

nyc_sport | 9 years and 9 months ago

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And, just to be clear in terms of thermostat location, you can buy Honeywell thermostats (and I am sure others) with wireless remote temperature sensors. They can work solely off the remote sensor(s), or based upon and average the temperatures from each sensing point. You can even take the sensors with you if you want the heat measured from a particular room. So you don’t need to relocate the thermostat if you wish to follow the advice above.

crownht888 | 9 years and 9 months ago

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Part of the floor 4 coolness is due to the fact that there are fewer exposed risers adding heat to the room and it being a top floor with a skylight – lots of room for heat to escape. I’ll start by putting in all Gorton 4’s on the bottom (hot) floor with the thermostat, and all Gorton D’s in the floor 4 apt and see how that goes to start. Thanks for all the advice!

slopefarm | 9 years and 9 months ago

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MP, is that a new business? Are you still Gateway as well? 4lane — definitely follow the advice the pros give you here over anything I say, but here my $.02 as a layperson who dealt with similar heating imbalances. 1\. Follow the advice you received above about using larger vents on the top floor, and working your way down, big to small. You may need to play around a bit as you see the effects, but definitely start with biggest vents on top floor and smallest vents where it is hottest. Balancing the system with vents resolves small issues, not big ones (like pressure, boiler sizing, etc) but it is something you can do yourself and you will at least make some progress and see whether the issue remains. 2\. Last I checked, the Gorton vent sizes (from small to large) were 4,5,6, C and D. Always make sure the heat is off and radiator cold when you change the vent. Wrap the vent threads with teflon tape before screwing it into the radiator. 3\. Do not try to slow down heat to the lower floor by turning the valve halfway closed. It must be all the way open or you will trap water in the radiator. 4\. Check the coldest floors for heat loss — windows, wall insulation, ceiling, sockets, etc. If your top floor rises above your neighbors, that can be a real heat loss issue. Check to see if exterior walls are cold to the touch.

crownht888 | 9 years and 9 months ago

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I’m unsure what the cut out pressure is, but it’s a new system that has been tuned and seems to work great. It’s just that the upper floors are naturally colder and since the thermostat is on the warmest floor, the heat shuts off before it really warms the top floor and then won’t come on again because the bottom floor is retaining that heat. So the top floor gets cooler and cooler. The thermostat does have an actuator, but i’d really hate to relocate it. Was hoping there was a way to retard the bottom radiators so the top floors have time to warm adequately. Second floor is warm enough but is high ceiling’ed so it’s not as warm as the bottom floor. And progressively cooler on 3rd and 4th. All the radiators pour out heat, they’re just not on long enough on the upper floors to heat adequately.

steam_man | 9 years and 9 months ago

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Wait. What is your boiler cut-out pressure? “Thermostat is downstairs…” Does your thermostat have an anticipator? Perhaps you should think about relocating it? Venting… Does the back of the house heat up at the same time as the front? How about at the first floor? How about at the second floor? Yes? No? If not you have to deal with a main vent issue. Check for vents at the top of risers. Check those uninsulated pipes usually found in bathrooms.

chipito | 9 years and 9 months ago

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This is great info and something I’ve been wanting to tackle in our place. Is there a good guide out there to systematically get everything balanced? Seems like it makes sense for homeowners to do themselves since it might be a process of trial and error over time. And at what point is radiator size the problem vs. valve number?

crownht888 | 9 years and 9 months ago

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Which Gortons open up the radiator for maximum heat and which restrict the radiator for minimal heat? I might minimize on floor 1 and maximize on floor 4 as a start to test it out.

crownht888 | 9 years and 9 months ago

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The boiler is new and it cranks out great heat. It’s just a matter of getting the steam to the top floors more before it shuts off the heat because it gets too hot downstairs. The Thermostat is downstairs so it gets warm much quicker than upstairs, and we can’t set the thermostat to 85 hoping that it gets warm enough on the top floor.

steam_man | 9 years and 9 months ago

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I second eman’s comment. It’s a process of refinement. Read up on the principles of venting and go with a good quality vent like the Hoffman Specialty Model 70A.

fexleycb | 9 years and 9 months ago

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I swtitched out all my valves with varivalves a couple of seasons ago. They didn’t do much. Wouldn’t use them again or recommend them. I’m going back to regular ones this winter.

eileengray | 9 years and 9 months ago

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I don’t know how old your boiler is but that problem went away when I got a new gas boiler. The quality of the heat improved immensely (even for steam) – it came up more gently and the cycles were longer. I tried sizing and vari-valves with minimal success. For years I resisted changing the boiler – after all, I thought, it’s a pot of water that makes steam – what could go wrong?

eman134 | 9 years and 9 months ago

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Go with fixed size vents on all floors, starting with gorton 5 or 6 (or the Hoffman equivalent)on the first floor and grading upward on orifice size going up. If you have exposed risers on the top floor, make sure that any vents on them are not fouled. Make sure that the main vents in the basement are in good shape. I personally hate varivents as it allows the system to be endlessly unbalanced by well meaning tenants. And stay away from the cheap vents sold in some hardware stores.