Healthy radiator paint?
I’m having trouble finding anyone who can speak intelligently on this topic, so I’d be very thankful if someone in this insightful and helpful community could help. Here’s the deal: This summer, I started renting an apartment in a Brownstone owned by family friends. They did a really nice job renovating before I came in (partially out of concern for me). Unfortunately, one of their good intentions has caused me a lot of trouble: they all repainted the radiators and poles. They warned me that the contractor warned them that these would take a “couple days” to burn off even though they had used a “heat resistant” paint (Benjamin Moore, D.T.M. ALKYD LOW LUSTRE P23; “resists” dry heat up to 350 degrees). The heat has been on consistently for about a month, and though the smell from my two radiators and two steam poles has been dissipating (it made my apartment uninhabitable the first week), the progress seems to have plateaued. If I hadn’t experienced this myself, my first advice to someone asking the same question would be: “Don’t worry about it — you’ll get used to the smell just like you get used to street noise as you sleep — welcome to NYC.” The problem, however, is not just the unpleasant smell; it’s the _effect_ it seems to be having on my health. I have very healthy and regular habits, and therefore am quite attuned to changes in my body: I have come to an unavoidable (though unwished for) conclusion: When I’m in my room for long periods of time when the heat is on I don’t feel right — slightly upset stomach; slight “halo” headache; lethargy; very irregular sleep. (I lived in this apartment for 4 months before the heat and felt NONE of these symptoms. I went home for the last few days and felt NONE of these symptoms.) Now, in full disclosure, I want to say that my sister’s room next door has the exact same smell. She doesn’t _like_ the smell, but at the same time does not notice the bodily effects that I have (well, at least she didn’t until I mentioned mine, but I fear that my mention may have “created” her issues). In any case, whether my problem is really physical or merely psychological (a “peace of mind” thing) is not my main concern. At the end of the day, I just want to make sure my living space healthy and comfortable again. I have tried to “wait this out” — I’ve tolerated it and worked around it the best I could for a month, but I’ve got too much to do to keep this up for much longer. To sum it up, I’ll ask my particular questions. Thoughtful answers to any of these will be very greatly appreciated — none of the would-be “experts” (people in the heating business) I’ve talked have given answers that I found to be satisfactorily informed and objective. My number one priority is to get this job done well; however, since I will be offering at least to bear the burden of cost and labor on this one myself (since I’m not sure my friendly landlords are “to blame”) I would appreciate as a bonus solutions that are cost- and labor-effective: **(1) Stripping and coating a radiator**: Is powder coating the only surefire way to get no smell/chemicals? Is $400 per 3’x2’x.5′ radiator a reasonable price for the job? Any important things I ought to consider? Any recs for the job (I’m in lower Manhattan) **(2) Stripping and coating OR isolating a steam pole**: My poles are as much of a culprit as the radiator. Obviously, someone can’t treat these themselves. I am willing to sacrifice aesthetics to eliminate the odor — has anyone ever managed to get rid of the smell from poles? I’m about to cover them with aluminum foil and a sisal rope like they use in restaurants, but wanted to check before investing in that (it would be at least $150 for the rope for 2 poles). **(3)** (Of less importance) **Has anyone had a similar issue with smells?** I have a very acute sense of smell, and artificial smells (even perfumes and hairsprays) can make me feel slightly ill. But paint itself (and this offgassing) is a whole new level. **(4)** (Out of mere frustration) **In what respect is a paint really “heat resistant”** if the maker warns that it will take days to offgas _when heated_. Obviously it’s not resisting the heat with respect to whatever vapors are causing this smell. (Is there anything besides powder treatment that is heat resistant in _this_ regard?) I really apologize for the long message, but wanted to give anyone who was willing to help as much info as possible. Thanks in advance for your time and efforts. –Tim
trvrt30
in Heating 12 years and 6 months ago
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cate | 12 years and 6 months ago
Some other thoughts: Do the radiatiors get really hot? Is it steam or hot water? Would running at a lower temperature, if such a thing is possible, make any difference? Also, it’s possible that merely painting over (encapsulating) the paint with a less toxic type (e.g. latex) would solve the problem. You could test with one radiator, see if you notice anything. If you google Benjamin Moore radiator paint, you get a page from them on how to paint radiators that says you can use latex. I do find their advice puzzling in one respect, though: You can’t paint directly onto metal with latex because it will rust the metal. They don’t say anything about that. If you do go this route, you will need to prime appropriately first so the paint does not peel. (You can paint latex paint over alkyd primer, but you cannot pain latex paint over alkyd paint.) This could mean more alkyd. Check with a painter first. (Also, it’s not advisable to paint with alkyd during heating season period, since ventilation will be an issue even if you’re not living there.)
cate | 12 years and 6 months ago
I am very sensitive to alkyd fumes myself, but offgassing of dry paint when heated is not something I’ve experienced. In fact, over the summer we painted two heating pipes in a bathroom with metallic oil-based radiator paint, and I have not noticed any offgassing or any problem now that we are in heating season. The paint had months to dry before we turned on the heat. (All our radiators and pipes were painted many years ago with silver paint by former owners — haven’t had any problems with those either.) It sounds like your paint also had a good number of months to fully dry out before the heat was turned on? Paint manufacturers and painters might have more information. Also there might be some association of people who have sensitivites to offgassing in carpets, paint, etc., who might have more information. Good luck to you.
cate | 12 years and 6 months ago
Alkyd fumes are toxic. You have to use a respirator and full ventiliation with all the windows open when painting with them; they have to fully dry over a few days with full ventilation before you can live in the same room with them without wearing a respirator. You might want to see a doctor.
NeoGrec | 12 years and 6 months ago
I feel for you. I’m also sensitive to chemical smells. When we repainted our radiators 12 years ago, we used a heat resistant paint. The smell was ghastly for about a week but it did dissipate. Subsequently, we’ve used standard water-based semi-gloss — much less smell and seems to be holding up just fine. A house painter told me almost ANY paint should be able to handle the heat from a hot water radiator. I wonder if the owners of the apartment got a bad batch of paint? If it’s BM alkyd, that’s oil-based. Not many stores still sell it and, if the staff aren’t experienced, they could have mixed it incorrectly. I dunno. That’s speculation and probably not helpful. Maybe you should try calling some painting contractors and asking their advice. Jon Barness is a very decent, reliable guy: jrbarsness@hotmail.com or (917) 346-2430.
brokelin | 12 years and 6 months ago
I so wish one could edit comments on forum after posting – excuse the typos above and my ‘there’s’ for ‘theirs’ (I know my English usage backwards and forwards, due to the nuns, but as I age I find myself typing and writing homonyms spelled differently incorrectly when writing, which I never did before – I can’t tell if this is from multi-tasking, or signals some sort of brain deterioration – in any event, it makes me sound ignornant of grammar, which I’m not…) Please add edit function.
brokelin | 12 years and 6 months ago
OK, I’ll chime in, as I am also sensitive to paint on radiators and pipes. When I bought my coop, I had the entire thing painted by a painter, who painted radiators and risers with the same benjamin moore paint he used on the walls, or maybe it was the semi-gloss used on the trim, I don’t recall. I regretted it, and would never do it again. Although I had lived in apartments with painted radiators all my adult life, and even painted some myself (though I seem to remember using that silver radiator paint mostly in my younger days), I never recall smelling the paint from the heated radiators and pipes for YEARS after the paint job was done. (Maybe because I never lived anyplace else for eight full years. Or maybe there’s a difference between steam and hot water radiators – I can never remember which are which.) That said, by the end of eight years, I rarely, though occasionally, smelled the paint when the heat came on, or just a touch. I write this to say that (1) your physical issues are not psychological, (2) you may continue to smell the paint sometimes in the winter for YEARS, and (3) even if you smell the paint for a long time, it does NOT mean that the fumes will be strong enough, despite the smell, to cause you physical trouble for years. It will disipate, though slowly, and likely to the point of being just an annoying smell, but one that does not make you sick. If you aren’t into moving, I suggest you crack a window as often as possible. Wear a wool hat to bed if that makes it possible to leave a window cracked at night. Try using an air purifier (I never tried one.) Spend as little time in your room when you are not sleeping as possible. (I think I survived the initial winter because I was working such long hours at the time, I was rarely home, even to get more than 4 or 5 hours sleep a night.) I had neighbors who had radiators taken away (obviously can’t do this during heating season), dipped and stripped, and painted with metallic radiator paint (I do not know if this was powder coating, I don’t think so, it looked and felt like paint). Perhaps there is a reason we all used that silver radiator paint years ago, and I don’t remember smells back then beyond a few days or weeks after painting. It seems to have gone out of favor somehow and people are using latex paint on radiators, a pity, as it was never designed for such. The metallic radiator paint IS designed for heat, specifically painting radiators. It doesn’t only come in silver, but other metallic colors that are more decor friendly – my neighbor’s radiators were more bronze in color, which was nicer. I would definitely use this method were I to buy and paint another place. I would look into having that done, come spring – you have time to do the research and figure out who does this stuff. It think there’s went to New Jersey (yes, from Brooklyn.) Carrying the heavy radiator down the stairs was the hard part. You can also have someone scrape and strip the risers and paint with this paint, come spring (you could have it scraped in the winter when the heat was off, but I wouldn’t advise applying the new paint during heating season at all – it needs time to dry, perhaps longer than you want the home to be without heat, I think, though you could ask the manufacturer of the paint about that.) I once bought a matt grey paint to paint a peeling riser in an apartment, and I remember buying (I think, it has been more than 20 years) paint specifically for heat, and that apartment did not smell of paint afterwards. So there may be alternatives to the shiny metallic paint that work. I recently looked at a new rental, which had just been renovated and painted, including the radiators painted white, and the heat was on, and I realized that I would again have to deal with this issue if I moved in. Your email reminds me to be happy that I did not get the place. And reminds me to be sure to tell the painter who will be painting the place I am likely moving into NOT to paint the radiators (and risers, if there are any) – I think the radiators are covered with radiator covers, so that should be easy.This may be a simpler way to deal with the problem in the future – if the paint on the radiators currently doesn’t smell when heated, I can simply have radiator covers made and skip stripping and painting the radiators at all. This won’t help if there are risers in need in paint, unless one is doing one of those renovations where the risers are boxed in with radiator-cover like grills to let heat escape. I would tend to think that the foil and rope won’t do much to keep the smell in – fumes have a way of escaping. If you can have the risers scraped (they make a tool that helps with this, a round scraper, I swear I had one, though perhaps it was a tool created for another purpose entirely, perhaps cleaning paint rollers) using paint stripper this winter, that would probably be preferable. If you can’t have them stripped now and want to cover them to see it it helps, I’d try a cheaper foam sort of cover you can buy for radiators (nothing says you can’t foil wrap it underneath) desinged to keep people from getting burns when they come in cotact with risers – way less labor inensive than rope wrapping, which is a very fiddly task – for this winter. Good luck.
Master Plvmber | 12 years and 6 months ago
Those are pipes, not “poles”. You need to speak to a toxicologist if you want an informed answer to what’s actually going on with you and that hot paint.
Rick | 12 years and 6 months ago
I don’t think there is much you can do about the smell at this point. You did say it is getting better right? That means that the smell is dissipating. You are sensitive and frustrated by the conditions but the worst should be over by now. In my experiences all painted heated surfaces need time to cure and they always smell for about a week. If the radiators were removed and reinstalled using pipe thread sealant, that will add to the smell problem as it will come out with the steam through the vent as it burns off. Perhaps one of the plumbers can chime in on possible new products to combat the problem.