Cogeneration boilers

We’re contemplating making the move to gas, for our boiler. I can of course go with a straight conversion, or I can explore one of the alternatives such as cogeneration.  This would increase the cost and complexity a bit, but on paper at least, shows good savings to be had in the long run.  But on paper doesn’t always reflect reality, so i’d like to hear any experiences. Is the tech “there yet” or would I be guinae pigging something that isn’t ready for prime time?

Goatcrapp

in Heating 13 years and 1 month ago

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Goatcrapp | 13 years and 1 month ago

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Also – if anyone is, or knows a local installer (and said installer has done more than 3 units) please let me know 🙂  – real life quotes of 30k might also bring this technology further out of reach.

Goatcrapp | 13 years and 1 month ago

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Sorry in advance for the long post. Bob, I’m specifically talking about household cogeneration, not dual fuel.   I figured it might be too new on a household scale to get any real life (much less long term) experiences.  Steam_man – didn’t realize the industry term was CHP – that’ll help expand my research, thank you. Faux – the link doesn’t work, but i think I know the article you mentioned.  Wasn’t my first introduction to this, but spurred me on to more research. To anwer other questions – it does exist. Honda, as well as some other companies have made household sized units in the 2-300k btu range (and up) but it’s relatively new on that scale, at least in the US.  It would not run as often in the warmer months, but can (and would in my installation) still be used for hot water  (via 2 passive unltra insulated storage tanks, wrapped in coils similar to a home distiller) and as such still create a little electricity to go back to the grid.  Alternatively, these can be programmed to run constantly during the warmer months, creating nothing but electricity, as the current price for the amount of gas it takes to create a given number of kW is still cheaper than con ed’s kwh/delivery charge, and so ofsets the cost..  There are also modules you can have installed such as battery arrays, pass through and integration circuitry for solar or other forms of alternative energy, etc…but again, all this is on paper.   I know these units are great on a large scale, but their efficiency may tank if you try to implement it on a smaller scale..   Although it is encouraging to see honda involved, i obviously still have my concerns for the small scale implementations. That’s what i’m tryng to gather here.  Costs wise – these seem to be more popular on the west coast, and people are paying about 50-60% more than a straight   oil to gas replacement.  The water tanks add an additional 2k (approximate, obviously this is regional). intriguing, but again, all on paper..  It’s a spendy plunge, and one i might be willing to take, but i’d need more than a salespitch to go on.  My motivation is partially to cut down costs, but with the larger overhead, i realize it might be years before i see a return..   but the other factors are:  i hate the smell during deliveries, i hate the big tank in the middle of the cellar, and the boiler is noisy and about ready for replacement anyway.  I could accomplish most of these by doing a straight swap to gas, but figured i’d look into other techs also.  Solar is out – a neighbor tried, and though the houses aren’t landmarked, the block is, and the LBC wasted no time nixing a rooftop solar array in his case.  Geothermal is also out and I have no river to install a waterwheel, lol.

fauxvic | 13 years and 1 month ago

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Assuming you’ve seen this?  http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/a-winters-tale-my-first-season-with-micro-combined-heat-and-power/  From the sound of it, seems it was expensive in 2009.  Perhaps cheaper now?

anonymous | 13 years and 1 month ago

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I’ve never heard of cogeneration on a residential scale. It’s used for large buildings and college campuses use them frequently.

shahnandersen

in Heating 13 years and 1 month ago

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I doubt if the OP means co-generation.  Rather he is probably asking about dual-fuel (gas/oil).

trevor35 | 13 years and 1 month ago

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I think the brick building in the Fairway parking lot in Red Hook is a cogeneration plant.

steam_man | 13 years and 1 month ago

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Do your research into CHP (Combined Heat & Power). It is legal in NYC. Many of the large buildings in downtown Brooklyn feature these units. It’s expensive and not for the tight walleted notr the feint of heart but it is a REALLY great system if you have the need.   -Steam Man

greenmountain | 13 years and 1 month ago

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I am surprised too for a house, but this is how the Brooklyn Navy Yard is powered and heated, where my business is located.  I am told our cogen plant is the most efficient generator in NYC.  I also remember the cogen plant on my college campus (Antioch) designed by our president Arthur Morgan in the 1920’s or 30’s.  It too was a model of efficiency, but like the Navy Yard it lost a lot of heat from the steam pipes between buildings.  Cogen in a single building would not lose heat in the winter, but would not be called on to generate electric in the summer, or even on warm heating season days, right?  Morgan went on to be the first head of the TVA.  Antioch College is restoring buildings on the reopened campus (free tuition (no kidding) by the way for students who agree to wear sweaters) but are using geo-thermal, passive solar and powering each building seperately, connecting to electric grid, etc.

Bklnite | 13 years and 1 month ago

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  I’d never heard of it, but after looking at wikipedia I take it you’re talking about something to generate both electricity and heat. I’m going to bet nobody replies that they’ve done this at home. Maybe the technology is there for Con Ed or a very large plant. For a homeowner I think getting rid of your old oil boiler and replacing it with a gas boiler is the way to go, especially with current prices where per unit cost of heat for oil nearly is double the cost for gas.

needmtg | 13 years and 1 month ago

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Co-generation is to locally generate electricity via  a gas engine or similar, with the waste heat used to heat the building…is that what you’re looking at? Well established technology but not too common in the US. You’ll need permits for electrical, gas and plumbing, and ConED will have to OK the connection if you want to sell them back excess electricity. Assume your heat is hydronic. If you’d like to talk about this more, contact me via my profile, I’d be interested in working with you on this.