water heater question

@renovationnightmare, he’s talking about my company. I know what you’ve got going on there. Call my office if you’d like and we’ll get you sorted out quick. (212/718) 980-0909

Master Plvmber

in Heating and Cooling 4 years and 2 months ago

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Guest User | 4 years and 7 months ago

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Hello world,

I’m currently choosing a water heater, and the tankless models look the best for me, as I don’t have much space to install a unit.
I’ve already read this [article](https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2019/08/30/tankless-water-heaters-2) and [this one](https://houseweather.org/best-gas-tankless-water-heater/)

Still, can’t decide whether I’m going for gas or electric heater…
So, you’d be very helpful if write some pros and cons

thanks a lot

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 7 months ago

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You probably don’t have enough power for an adequate electric one and chances are pretty good you don’t have a compliant way to vent a gas one.

lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 7 months ago

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^ Tankless Units are not designed with a Space Saving purpose; they are designed to be High Efficient Units.

lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 7 months ago

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^ Tankless Units are not designed with a Space Saving purpose; they are designed to be High Efficient Units.

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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it is either a failing T&P valve, or if you have a check valve on the water heater, a lack of or failed domestic water expansion tank

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Thank you! It’s no longer dripping. Does that mean it’s okay or should we still have it looked at?

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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what is the temperature of the heater set at? is there a check valve on the cold water supply?

hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago

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The pressure in the system has exceed the valve spec or the valve is bad. If there is no backflow preventer or check valve, excess pressure can push back into the water service line, that is why eman137 twice asked about this. If there is a backflow prevention device, then expansion in the system could force water out the valve when heated and the expansion tank should be checked and it’s job is to compensate for this effect.

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Thank you so much. Sorry it’s taken so long to respond.

I’m not sure what temperature the heater is set to. The options are Vacation, Low, Hot, A, B, C, and Very Hot in that order. Ours is set to Hot, although the water coming out of the faucet is often too hot, but if we put it closer to Low, the water ends up being too cold.

I don’t believe there’s a backflow preventer or a check valve on the water line. We do, however, have an expansion tank, but that might have been accidentally left in the plans from a previous version of our plans that did call for a backflow preventer, so one was installed but from the sounds of things might not have been necessary?

If there’s no backflow preventer or check valve, but there is an expansion tank, can excess pressure still build up?

Could the high temperature have something to do with this? From the water coming out of the faucet, you’d think we had the heater set on the highest setting, but we don’t.

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 2 months ago

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You need a professional to look at this. If the expansion tank is old and ruptured internally then it’s not doing its job, even though it may look fine from the outside.
It takes a lot to activate a water heater relief valve. There are different models for commercial equipment, but overwhelmingly the ones we use in our homes open to release water at 150 PSI or 210°F so whatever set yours off, and then self-corrected to allow the valve to close, is a condition you don’t want have happen again.

To give this some perspective, the water pressure in NYC residential buildings without roof tanks or pressure booster systems is generally measured at around 45-55 PSI. Residential water heaters set at their highest setting generally create 140°F water maximum. So, a water heater relief valve is not a sensitive device. It’s there to activate in an emergency. You had one of those emergencies.

hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Here’s some starting points to think about.

Why is there an expansion tank if there’s no backflow device? It’s possible it’s a redundant, but that would be odd. A plumber would normally notice an expansion tank going in when it isn’t needed.

Now suppose there is no backflow device. Is it possible that a manual valve was closed with the leak occured? If the water service was shut off and the tank fired, that does seem like a situation that could open the valve, possibility, and most likely if the expansion tank wasn’t working. Are you sure the expansion tank is not part of your heating system?

Can you post pictures of your setup?

JohnHancock | 4 years and 2 months ago

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I would listen to Master Plumber’s advice, he’s a pro who does this for a living and runs a solid business

hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago

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I’d personally try to figure out what the problem is before I hired a plumber(and then I would hire a plumber to fix it). You’ll be paying 200-300 bucks an hour, and it’s very unlikely you’ll get a master plumber at your site. Paying someone to troubleshoot a vague problem can get expensive fast. Master Plvmer is a good plumber and wouldn’t rip you off, at least that’s my impression. But my experience with NYC plumbers has not been a great one. I can easily imagine spending 500-1000 bucks, and not getting the problem resolved, or getting upsold something crazy.

If the plumber shows up, it would be great if you could say, “Here’s what happened, I think it needs a new expansion tank”, then they can check it, and are much less likely to take you for a ride if it seems like you actually know what is going on.

Now there’s some stuff you should know about your setup. You don’t necessarily want to mess with your water heater temperature for convenience. Storing the water at too low a temperature can create a legionella hazard, but too high can create a scald hazard at the fixtures. Usually a mixing valve is used so the water can be stored above 140 and delivered around 120. I’d have your plumber explain how this is set up, and whether it’s working properly, or if you might want to add a mixing valve if one isn’t present.

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Everything was installed within the last year and has only been in use for a few months, so the expansion tank is new and it’s definitely attached to the water heater. I’ve attached a photo. It’s possible there’s a backflow preventer somewhere, although I can’t find it. The only thing attached to the water line is the water meter and then there’s another meter-type device for the sprinkler system.

I first noticed water coming out of the drip tube a couple of weeks ago, but it could have been dripping long before then (I hadn’t checked it in a while). We have had to shut off the water a few times to fix things here and there, so it is possible the water heater fired while the water was turned off, but the water would have been off for no more than an hour. And, when I saw it dripping, the water was on and had been for weeks.

[IMG_8406](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:6iuO:img_8406.jpg.jpg)

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Urbandad — I didn’t see your last response. I would definitely like to be able to go to a plumber with a specific problem. The whole thing is so odd, because everything has only been in use for a few months, so I’m not sure how something could have failed so soon.

stickerhappy | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Cant you go back and ask the guy who installed it why it’s having a problem so soon after installation?

hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago

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Is that a domestic circulation pump? A taco 008 maybe? There are likely check valves under that insulation. I don’t think we can see enough here to identify the problem. Unfortunately it’s not easy to see the problem here without more troubleshooting. You’d have to check if everything is actually in the right place. How come the installer hasn’t been consulted?

Guest User | 4 years and 2 months ago

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I’m still waiting to hear back from the installer, although they have a tendency to say everything’s fine when it then turns out it isn’t particularly if there’s no active dripping when they happen to come (“what dripping? looks fine to me”). That’s why I thought it would be good to get as much info as I can ahead of time, and my guess is I’ll end up having to hire a plumber anyway.

And, yes, it’s a taco recirculating pump, but it doesn’t make the water heat up any faster so we keep it off to save power.

hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago

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  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

So when you operate the pump you don’t get hot water more quickly at the fixtures? That is weird don’t you think?