installing a radiator

Master_Plumber times have changed; it is a client satisfaction driven market at the end of the day.
Our company would do an install like that if that is really what you wanted to do. We simply are specific in our Invoice, slap a Claim Sticker on the underside of the unit stating it was installed wrong on purpose and even put a little secret marking on it to further identify that it was a client chosen installation.

Jeremy, i am not saying that what you have is wrong in the sense that something can go wrong with it and hurt someone or damage the property, i don’t know. But with the decline in professionalism over the past twenty or so years, many contractors will go ahead and do what a customer asks for without knowing or having the confidence to turn around and look them in the eye and say “we can’t do this this way” or “yes we can do it but it will cost $$$$$”.

This instance might be a case and point and that is why the plumbers are pushing back. I saw it when you first posted it and knew it was a baseboard and thought “a handyman did it”. After reading what the others are saying, my thought is that a true proessional would have said to you “we can do it and they make a radiator for it and i know where to get it”.

The reason i am saying this is, i suspect you, like many people on this board are a bit younger and less experienced than many of us and come to accept that shoddy work is simply how it is done these days. Its not. Professionals still exist and we would b e wise to support them. The person who did this would have been wise to have found a radiator designed to be hung on a wall and told you “its this or nothing” (even if only to preserve their own professionalism). As it is now, I question how this is secured and i have spent a lifetime hanging a lot of very heavy stuff on all manner of substrate.

> @randolph
> Anyone know the ballpark cost to have a new steam radiator installed?

any chance we can steer this back to my original question???? the existing unit is

24″ wide x 8″ deep x 38″ tall

and the new placement would be under a window that is

36″ wide and the windowsill is 25″ off the floor

is it even possible to get a radiator that would match the output and not mess up the entire building’s system while fitting into that new space?

@doorsbythetinkerswagon ouch. I’m a bit offended that you assume I accept shoddy work. I’m happy to give you or the plumber critics a tour of some of these wall mounted baseboard radiator installs during heating season if you want to see how well and properly they are installed and operate.
Sometimes push back from plumbers who do work only one way is like push back from a guy who only uses a hammer when you ask him to use a screw instead of a nail. There are times and places for screws and nails, and neither requires accepting shoddy work.
@randolph existing radiator size is less important than existing radiator surface area for figuring your btu calculation for determining what size and kind of radiator to install next. It will be hard for anyone on here to tell you what size will be best for your building, apartment, room without seeing and testing the system. Is the building’s system optimally maintained or is it maintained by a super or a boiler company that incorrectly turns the pressure up to fix every low heat complaint? If you want to replace something comparabl e to what you have, you can find some very helpful charts in a book written for laymen and pros alike called Greening Steam. You can probably find the same charts from the author’s website forums at heatinghelp.com or via other web searching. If your apartment is better insulated now than when the radiator was originally installed, then you might not need as much btu output. If you are comfortable in winters with your existing radiators output then it might be safe to assume you can replace with a different size and kind so long as btu output is comparable. As we have all advised above, don’t have an amateur install this kind of thing. Don’t have a regular plumber install this kind of thing. Have a radiator specialist kind of plumber install this kind of thing. Believe me, many plumbers in NYC know way too little about how these old heating systems work. They are relics on their way out of style more and more. Hire a plumber who knows their stuff

JeremyKiltsPropMgr – thanks

Randolph Sorry I did not realize it was the same thread. There are a ton of specifics that go into Heating System work, so anyone who prices you out without knowing your system already would need to see it. It is just a fact of the Skilled Trades.
My advice would be to ask if anyone else in the building has had it down and go from that point

Randolph Sorry I did not realize it was the same thread. There are a ton of specifics that go into Heating System work, so anyone who prices you out without knowing your system already would need to see it. It is just a fact of the Skilled Trades.
My advice would be to ask if anyone else in the building has had it down and go from that point

as someone who has spent an incredible amount of money on plumbing what a wild thread lol

hey jeremy no matter how much you rhapsodize about floor space and increasing rent that radiator install still looks like crap… and btw MP is one of best steam experts in NYC …look up his website… also I’m none too shoddy myself….

also here are the wall hung cast iron units that were
linked
https://ocsind.com/products/wall-hung/

randolph you can definitely replace the old unit with one of these…post a photo of the existing radiator so i can calculate the btu output
https://oswaldsupply.com/products/gov-free-cast-iron-radiator-size-4-7-16-x-19-18-sections-water-steam-output-2-3-days-to-ship?variant=39527842021513&kw=MR419X18&c=Shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PerformanceMax-SmartShoppingNYC&kw=&ad=&matchtype=&adposition=&c=PerformanceMaxNYC&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu4_7n-er-QIVi8mUCR2UPQ2fEAQYAiABEgJEvfD_BwE

randolph…heres an easy visual guide to calculate btu from castiron rads
https://pdf4pro.com/view/sizing-cast-iron-radiator-heating-capacity-guide-a400.html

Jeremy: as i said at the beginning of what i wrote, i am not qualified to know if that setup is safe and functions the way it should (i imagine it does). but when i saw the baseboard hanging on the wall – i felt like a “handyman” had done it and it looked “shoddy”. i would not put something like this in my own house nor allow a contractor to do it in a customer’s house – but i might install something like this in my own basement and be happy with it.

for us “old” guys (i am pushing 60 and even if that is not old in 2022, my way of thinking is a little different than that of many people younger than say 45) something just has to look shoddy to be shoddy. for myself, i have worked in scores of buildings and houses, and have worked on a lot of jobs where decades of shoddy work had been done and even if it functions as it should, enough of it makes a building look like it had been maintained by first graders who just learned finger painting (the building will look like s**t). to those of us who came up working in this, it looks like something is “wrong” an d when something looks wrong something IS wrong.

case and point: yesterday, i had to fix a copper pipe to my garden spigot. it had frozen over the winter and ruptured. when i soldered the joints together, i did not wipe the joints down. Professionals wipe the joints down. i do not know why they wipe the joints down because i am not a plumber and because i am not a plumber i did not give a toss if the solder joints to my own garden spigot were wiped. but if i were buying a house and was looking at the boiler and saw lumps of solder sticking out of the copper joints, i would question what kind of “idiot” had installed or maintained the boiler; i would question the experience level of the installer.

at this point, i can safely say i am “old” school and i suspect those plumbers are as well. we were raised in a time when if someone did not take care with ALL aspects of a job, including not only how it functioned but how it looked, the entire job was suspect; if it did not look “right”, it was “shoddy”. that is what shoddy is to us of this generation but more importantly, for people of my generation working in buildings the thought is “if they take shortcuts on the most obvious aspect – “how it looks” – what other shortcuts have they taken and when will those shortcuts appear?” the answer is not on a bright and sunny day in June.

this line of thinking was reinforced on people of my generation by people who are now in nursing homes or dead. Younger people today seem to think all of these shortcuts are acceptable and some believe that that is “the way it is done” and it is “ok”. it is not and it does not have to be and whoever that plumber was who installs those for you is, he or she should have pointed you in the direction of the correct equipment just to make the buildings look as though they were maintained by pros (even if that thing in the photo functions ok and is safe). btw, i once worked for a property management firm and my boss Jim Cranford whose company was based in North Myrtle Beach, would not have tolerated anything being installed in any manner it was not designed for even if it worked (he would have gone nuts at the suggestion). sadly, i learned that Jim passed away a couple months back and as we lose these guys, a level of professionalism goes with them.

can i ask this, was it a licensed plumber who did that install or a handyman? i am only asking out of curiosity to see if i read the installation correctly.

@tinker the only licensed plumber I have not had to correct about improper steam heat work is who installed this radiator. They might refer to it as a Kilts special because they doubtfully do it for others. And they would not do it for me until after years of working with me and realizing I am a good customer and know as much about maximizing valuable NYC rentable floor space as they do about relic heating systems. (Holohan referred me to these guys when I needed to solve backpitched heating mains for residential units above the old meatpacking district Diner when I had a fraction of the budget needed to properly fix incredible water hammer and air vent leaks.)
My clients seem to have different needs than you. They hire me to crank up rent prices and maintain and improve pre war building mechanicals. I work with plumbers who are willing to help me do so. Some plumbers are not, and that is OK.
I have never had a tenant mention that the radiators look shoddy. Based on experience, most of them don’t know how the radiators work any better than they know how magic or the int ernet works. Any comments have been appreciative that I gained another foot or two of useful floor space for them in these tiny boxes they are are arguably paying way too much to occupy.
Doing things the proper way is good. But the proper way was not always available until necessity created new application or invention of previously untried things. Ever used a Kleenex to blow your nose? I believe that was an improper or shoddy use of a Kleenex before it became more popular to use Kleenexes the way we do now.
Different strokes for different folks. Different can be wrong. And sometimes it is just right

There’s an interesting conflict in this thread between those who favor established conventional uses of equipment and those who espouse creative work around. My gut feeling is to favor the latter, but what do I know? My house has forced hot air heat.

Bob, it also comes down to money and immediate roi. Long term, someone might want do a better job but once you do that you have to do it with everything. Short time, quicker and easier is better.

Also some people may not care or may not know what they are looking at so it won’t matter.

When this discussion happens in buildings or even with my residential customers and they are trying to get me to do something that i feel will look wrong, what it ultimately comes down to is if it is “safe and legal”. Jeremy is probably right in that it is safe and legal (and a real plumber did it). He offers a differing perspective as i have always worked for owners in properties they use for their own families, not tenants.

> @JeremyKiltsPropMgr
> Holohan referred me to these guys when I needed to solve backpitched heating mains
I work with Dan Holohan a lot. If I show him this picture he’ll be shocked.

> @JeremyKiltsPropMgr
> They hire me to crank up rent prices
Jeremy, it’s fascinating the way you describe what you seem to think is some unique skill set working for cutthroat slumlords to overvalue tiny shit hole apartments in New York. Am I far off the mark? Are they not slumlords because their buildings are in pricey neighborhoods?
What you posted here is absolute shit. Make your money and move on but spare us all the proud, preachy soliloquy.

Jeremy…the only saving grace is that Paul completely hosed you by charging you $2000 for embarrassingly substandard work

@Eman @mp did I offend the two of you so that you would slanderously assume I am a slumlord or that I was hosed for paying a plumber to do a job that others are either unfamiliar with how to do or would otherwise refuse to do? You’re using aggressive language for a forum where people seek creative and resourceful property ideas, no?