Found: company that installs hydronic electric radiant plus cooling
Very interested to see how they would do this without a full renovation.
Installing Radiant without a renovation sounds like a headache alone but always love to hear their process!
chrispetriplumbing
in Heating and Cooling 3 weeks ago
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27 replies
annissa12 | 1 year and 4 months ago
I posted here a while back about my interest in a heat pump + radiator system, which is common in Europe but uncommon here. I was told by various contractors and plumbers that they don’t exist, that they are not efficient, that they don’t work in cold climates, that they won’t work in a whole house–all of which puzzled me since they are routinely installed in big old houses in cold regions like Scandinavia and the UK.
Anyway… I finally found a new company right here in Brooklyn run by a guy who is very knowledgeable and very passionate about these European-style “air to water” systems. It’s called BK Climate Solutions, and I just put down a deposit.
It uses a heat pump like for mini-splits but connects to water-filled pipes for radiators or radiant floors. It also heats your water and pumps out cold air for cooling in summer, except instead of those fat units on the wall, the air comes from very slim slits on the wall or grates on the floor. (Obviously easier as part of a major reno when walls are open.)
Yes, it’s way more expensive than a mini-split system, but there are big rebates available through Con Ed and through NYSERDA’s EmPower + program (if you qualify as moderate income, which for Kings County is defined as less than $101,800). And it apparently costs less to run than a mini-split because it’s even more efficient.
Article about the owner’s own renovation and heat system is here: https://www.achrnews.com/articles/153824-project-files-episode-65-zero-emission-hydronic-heat-at-brooklyn-brownstone
I can’t say yet what it’s like to live with, but thought I’d pass this along in case anyone is interested.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
Countrymouse, this topic and questions about the efficiency of these things came up on here a few months back with people referencing units used in europe. I lived with heat pumps in north carolina in the 1980s and was aware that these will work to a point (about freezing) at which time an expensive to operate heat coil kicks in. Understanding that technolgy has improved since the 1980s and that europe has become a leader in green technology, i began digging around to find out what is going on and as with everything else where marketing is involved or someone has an agenda to drive, there is a lot that people do not tell us about what we are being sold. With the european products, i decided to pull the technical data from a product made in the UK. The first thing i read in their marketing material was that their product will “not work in places like Canada without auxiliary heat”. As i dug deeper into their technical data i learned that these machines work better than what i used in the 1980s but that from about 28 F to 11 F they work with decreasing efficien cy until at 11 F they must rely entirely on an auxiliary heat source and that source is often an electric wire type device that chews electricity (when that device kicked in where i was living in the 1980s, i ran outside and looked at the electric meter; it was spinning like a top). The Taco unit you mention works down to about 7 F. I am not sure how well it works as the temperature drops from say 32f to 7f.
During my research, i made a call to a friend in europe asking him what they install in their houses. The regular joe over there is sort of where many of us are at here with this stuff. They know about it and are watching it but are not 100% sold on it. The guy i spoke to who considers himself to be green and makes it his life to do the best he can (better than most people at the same socioeconomic and education level here would do), had just installed a modern and smaller gas boiler. It was not like our old cast iron junk, but it was still a gas boiler (like one of these little bosch units we see hanging in closets here).
Others in this debate on here a few months back said it might be good to keep our old heating systems if we were to install heat pumps. To that point, i recently did a home inspection on a newly renovated house that had been upgraded in every respect. No expense had been spared on green technology. And what did they do? They installed heat pumps AND a brand new gas boiler with radiant floor heating/pex (they did not simply leave their 30 year old cast iron junk like i would do). There was a reason they did this.
I might poke around later and do some more research into Taco and their performance and also read about scandanavian systems to see if they are doing something we don’t know about.
Also, when dealing with contractors, the most important thing they are telling you is not what they are saying but what they are not saying. Do your own research.
Guest User | 1 year and 4 months ago
Taco system m appears to generate a maximum temp water flow of 140 degrees, too low for standard radiators… it’s rated only for radiant heat or air handlers…
Augustiner | 1 year and 4 months ago
The nay-sayers here are always quick to smash any glimmer of enthusiasm.
As far as I know there will be no new gas lines for new construction or major renovations from January 2024. So it is essential to find out more about ‘all electric’ heating solutions that go beyond the common hvac wall mount unit.
And any system that uses water instead of r410 is a smart investment because it is easier to maintain than proprietary decentralized hvac gear.
Guest User | 1 year and 4 months ago
You could also use a residential chiller like the Chiltrix Cx50… but again the maximum temperature output limits the system to fan coils or radiant heat unless you integrate a hydronic boiler into the system. Also the btu heating output of each cx50 is merely 57000 btu
Guest User | 1 year and 4 months ago
Artic is the only North American heat pump that can deliver a high enough temperature for standard radiators.., but again, small btu output compared to gas, and pretty pricey…
https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/high-temperature-heat-pump.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgojv2P63gwMVyWlHAR2LowHlEAAYAiAAEgISkfD_BwE
annissa12 | 1 year and 4 months ago
In my case I’m replacing the old radiators (many of which were damaged, and not the beautiful style you sometimes see) with one radiant floor on the main living level and fan coil radiators in the bedrooms, hidden away in the walls and floors. My house is on the smaller side–18 x 30 feet–so there’s less space to heat than in a really large, cavernous brownstone. Also I’m adding a ton of insulation (there was basically none in the house before). And how often does it get down to 7 degrees any more? Not often. I’m really excited to be getting off gas and to have cozy radiant heat.
annissa12 | 1 year and 4 months ago
Oh I should add that the figure I gave in my original post for “moderate income” under the EmPower program is for a household of three. You plug in your county and your household size and it’ll tell you the qualifying income limit for low and moderate income.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
Countrymouse, what is the government thinking when they set limits like this? If my wife and i went to buy our modest (crappy) queens home with income like that, we would not be able to do so. We now have a child in college and do not qualify for financial aid (and think we should) but even if we got financial aid, if we had income like that and had an emergency in this house, we would be in big trouble. That income limit is not designed for working new yorkers with mortgages. It is designed for people who either inherited a house and work a modest job or retirees who have their mortgage and everything else paid off and scrape by in nyc on 80 grand a year.
And augustiner mentions gas lines for major renovations. The people who can afford to do that sort of renovation will not qualify for this program.
If our government wants us to get serious about going green then our government will have to do more. Otherwise we will continue to have guys like me nursing our stinking old oil burners along until our own demises.
I will talk to someone in europe this w eek, again, about what people are using and about taxpayer funded incentive programs and what they think of these systems.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
And don’t let anyone from europe tell us how green they are. When we sit down at a table with europeans of the same socioeconomic group as ourselves, it always comes down to the same thing, money. They don’t realize it themselves until we talk to them and learn why they buy certain things but it is because of financial incentives (solar and heat) or penalties (taxes on fuel or big engines in cars).
eg66 | 1 year and 4 months ago
Countrymouse, your setup (smallish footprint, already doing insulation) seems ideal for this project, and I am intrigued! After being very certain we’d convert to HVAC with minisplit, we are living with our old gas boiler for this winter and thinking it through. I would love to be rid of gas, and heat pump hydronic systems sound cool. Just haven’t been able to find anyone who can tell me if one can fit it into an older home without a major reno. Please share when you finish! I’ll bring you a bottle of wine if I can come see it too 🙂
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
Greengoblin: this can be done. Its being done all over. The question is at what cost and for too many in this country who have to worry about basic needs such as housing, healthcare and college education, the costs put green technology out of reach.
I am now in a class with Building Performance Institute and that is the start in a series of classes and certifications that will allow me to register with NYS as an approved Home Energy Auditor and speak about how to make improvements. Give me six months and I will be able to speak some authority on this subject. Know that it appears to be as much about making improvements to the physical structure as it is about modern mechanical systems.
And for those of us who belive in this as a global initiative and want to see us become leaders in green energy or at least become on par with europe, we have an uphill battle. I am on eastern long island with family right now and any time i mention anything about progressive policies, initiatives with green energy, or make any comparisons with Europe, these people (the polit e ones) change the subject. One of the more vocal ones told me two weeks ago that “she was going to move to florida and start a revolution” (and “kill people”; she probably wants to kill the same people who would love to give her healthcare and send her to college; i tried to continue the conversation but my wife kicked me in the shin under the table). Fortunately, last night, i had someone from Norway sitting across from me (we had a few conversations on the side and i am going to consult her about the heating systems they are using and will be reporting back here).
Guest User | 1 year and 4 months ago
Arctic Heat Pump offers heating /cooling heat load and design services for a small fee… you send them plans and they do the calculations
https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/manual-j-design-service.html
Chiltrix likes to approve your system design plans before selling you the equipment.
I’ve only serviced Chiltrix units in a system that incorporated gas fired high efficiency boilers that kick in at 45 degrees F since the cost of running the chillers becomes prohibitively cost ineffective at that point. Of course a hybrid system adds to the cost significantly. And I hate to admit it but I hate heating via air handlers.
The Arctic equipment is also way more expensive than conventional heating / cooling systems. You might also want to add a glycol component in the water loop to prevent equipment freezing if your power fails, another layer of complexity and expense.
I haven’t seen the Arctic systems used anywhere in NYC so far but they seem to be the closest thing to the Samsung and Daikin high temp heat pump boilers available in Europe
Guest User | 1 year and 4 months ago
If you go for a high temp heat pump hydronic setup for heat you still need air handlers for cooling, so there is no savings on equipment at all. Same with a lower temp option with radiant heat … it does not work for cooling due to condensation problems
hkapstein | 1 year and 4 months ago
+1 to eman. 140 might work with hot water radiators if you have a pretty large amount of them, or a very low heat load, but in europe air to water heat pumps are available that can delivery at least 160 for radiators.
jrs84o | 1 year and 4 months ago
I have had Mitsu Hyper Heat units for almost ten years here in Brooklyn.
They blow 110 degrees at the air handler, and circulate to the center of the room at around 90 degrees— lower than your body temperature— which is why they always feel a bit cold on the skin when draft air circulates through the room.
It’s a subtle point I have mentioned on this forum before… But until you experience it, especially coming from forced air or hydro like we have historically done in NYC, you will not even think about it.
I also owned a property in London for over 20 years which had “European-Style” hydro units which produced no steam which RADIATED at around 150 degrees off of the radiator “foils” and circulated above 100 degrees into the center of the room.
There is NO COMPARISON….. Hydro Units are the way to go for warmth and cost.
But BE AWARE:
Its all about “envelope” insulation… if your property is not insulated “correctly” BOTH type of units will simply run all day— and never reach the set point.
jrs84o | 1 year and 4 months ago
I should mention…the type of “hydro” heat units we used in London were not “steam heat” units but units which simply circulate hot water which radiates heat through “fins” or “channels” pressed into the room unit. There were no fans or blowers (like modern heat pumps) to circulate air around/off the radiators which simply follow the rule of thermodynamics where “heat goes to cold.”
The room sizes in London were perhaps 80% of the room size in a Brooklyn brownstone, and ceiling heights were not greater than 8’ — which probably made a huge difference in heating… we had no cold air conditioning…
The whole system was fed by a 14”x20” on demand electric water heater which sat in our kitchen cupboard… I can’t remember the wattage,
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
850mph. This is why more research is needed. We have to compare apples to apples and that is very hard to do with the uk and ireland because their climates are milder than ours here in the northeast and the auxiliary heat will kick in more here.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago
And we have to be careful of marketing buzzwords that mask the true nature of things.