Tenant wants lead testing.

She said pediatrician tested her toddler for lead and she has level above the treshhold.
Now… we do not have anything that we did not touch in this apartment for 20 years.
Floors throughout the apartment is new oak about 12 years old, all new windows with new frames and windowsills, some replaced twice, wood trims were sanded,
stripped in some places, floor basedboards sanded or replaced and painted..
Kitchen was moved with an architect permit, original room taken to the studs, new kitchen – almost everything, and tiled over.
Bathrooms were taken to the brick, all pipes replaced, wonderboarded and tiled, new watermain…
Ceiling – we have original only in 2 rooms, one – painted over tin and one – plaster.
The rest was replaced with sheetrock or laminated with sheetrock.
Walls – either were skimcoated in 2 larger rooms, or sheetrocked.
We had 5 families in this apartment, naturally, we renovate and paint each time. We do not like paint caked over, so, patches and all woodwork was lightly sanded before new coat of paint.

so, everything was painted over at least 5 times .

I am at loss: what could be wrong. Thinking about it – we have nothing to worry about. We raised our child in apartment below, and it was much less renovated while our child was a toddler. We did lead testing on her too, and it was normal.
We had many toddlers in the apartment I was describing. 6 toddlers to be exact. Never had we face this problem.
Still I am scared to death now.

lucie

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Right. So my understanding is that the city is now in charge. It is not like it was 10 years ago where the city did not vist untl it hit 10. I specifically asked the inspector if a 3.8 will triggrr a visit and he said a firm yes and that a year ago it had to be over 4. I asked him twice.

So the op has finally told us there is an inspection thursday. I suspect that is a city inspection. Once that is done, the op reaches out to their own inspector and this is where they need someone who is patient and really tries to find the source with the dust wipes. If they can find it is that fireplace brick, door rub. Etc. It sounds like the inspector can specify that spot and direct repair at that spot. It is a better alternative than a city inspector shooting an xray and saying you have lead and that’s it. A wipe inspection must be done. also sounds like this is an opportunity for a challenge but i sippose that is a qurstion for an attorney

I said it above. They called me about my bld lead level last year and it very much sounded like if i could not tell them how it happen that they would be telling me what to do or asking about my job.

Yes, some tenants will use this against the landlord. The inspector said the lawyers run these ads on the radio. I said lets hope tenant does not listen to 1010 wins.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Does the OP want NYC to find lead based hazards in the house that are unaddressed? Wouldn’t this provide NYC and tenant better opportunity to demonize the landlord for harming a child? Is that what the OP wants?
I believe OP has not said previous intentions were to 100% remove lead from house but instead to remove and encapsulate much lead where feasible and in a seemingly responsible manner.
I have not know NYC to support landlords in these kind of scenarios. I have known NYC to make things extraordinarily difficult for landlords in these kind of scenarios. I have known NYC to help tenants demonize landlords in these kind of scenarios. I would not sit back and wait for NYC to be a landlord’s savior

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I called dennis back. He said that the only way for this to happen is if there is damage to paint. No damage, no problem. Provided things are closed up. He said this:

If stuff is in good condition the investigator from the dept of health will look at;

Water pipes

Travel outside of the country

Foreign foods or spices

Utensils and toys from outside the country or antique

The mother and her history but that is usually spotted during pregnancy.

He said they will look at everything.

Also, has there been construction near by.

At this point, i do not think you should clean anything or disturb anything but wait and hope that if it is a source from your woodwork, they can linpoint it and have paint it. It sounds like you wany them to find it.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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If the city and an inspector cannot find the source of the lead on surfaces but the know lead is encapsulated under paint, the simple answer for the city is abate. That is what i meant to say, sorry.

It sounds to me as if after they (the city) ssues an xray report you might have a little leverage to try to find a source by finding a patient inspector for the wipe test. Dennis did mention that “it depends on the inspector” . This guy dennis was patient with me but i suspect this guy luke is going to be good because of the recommendations

And to what i said about managing this, when the city did not visit until a 10 mg, that would have all been possible to get in under that window and stop this before it hit 10 provided you used licensed people. It would have allowed you some control.

Call that guy dennis bush as well. Even if you think you might go with someone else for a wipe test, another opinion won’t hurt and you will learn and confirm what luke is saying.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you. I contacted Luke Gray earlier

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you. I contacted Luke Gray earlier

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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OP if you need an inspection sooner than Thursday then you could try http://ecmsny.com
Marc is busy like the rest of them (and is traveling this holiday weekend) but you might get a Tuesday/Wednesday opening if you tell him Jeremy Kilts referred you and told you to ask pretty please for inspection first thing next week. You can also ask for expedited test results. Normal timeline is up to a week but he can charge you extra for turnaround as soon as next business day. If he has availability for you then it is important to tell him the circumstances, what locations you believe need tested, and what work you are considering performing

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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You wrote “if city does not find anything they will send me some document and will order me to abate”.
I am lost. Abate what if they does not find anything?
Also, how it goes with the link that i found that abatement companies are required only in some cases? And we can fix 1 sf without an abatement company if we follow giuidlines, wetclean everything, etc.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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You wrote “if city does not find anything they will send me some document and will order me to abate”.
I am lost. Abate what if they does not find anything?
Also, how it goes with the link that i found that abatement companies are required only in some cases? And we can fix 1 sf without an abatement company if we follow giuidlines, wetclean everything, etc.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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ok, here we go. i just got off the phone with Dennis Bush of Qalead of queens.

at the 3.8 level, the city is going to send and investigator to visit the house. The city will make a determination as to what is done and you will have no option on testing. they will perform an initial test.

before i spoke to dennis, i did call another one and they told me do not do anything on your own. that person said if you call a non certified abatement contractor that is a “slam dunk” for a lawsuit. Dennis told me if the dept of health shows up and you have someone trying to stop this and they do not have an rpp number, they will issue a stop work and every one is screwed (my word). dennis said some people call the dept of health when the level is on the lower end like 3.8 and they try to preempt but doing so really will not do anything and it is not going to protect you from liability. Either way, the city just lowered the limits with under six year old and they are going to visit. they will test and they will issue an order. that order may include you having a lead inspector test surfaces with dust wipes that the inspector will send to a lab. if they cannot trace the source of this, they will issue an order – you will get a package with directions in it, and they will order you to abate. you will call for additional testing, you will call licensed contractors, you will call for a retest after the abatement.

he did tell me that sometimes the city will look at certain circumstances like what they person in the home does for work. so if they are a contractor, they will consider could the contractor be bringing lead into the house. that could be a way out.

basically it is do nothing and wait. you can always call a lead inspector but if you do the wrong thing, you are asking for trouble. he also told me that not everything ends up in a lawsuit.

the first person i called was an abatement contractor and they told me they do not even respond to calls like this, they simply sit and wait for people with city directives to call.

dennis has a website. if you can not find it, let me know or email me i will send his number and a link. he was very pleasant to talk to and very good at explaining this to me.

somebody on this board should have made this call yesterday.

steve
www.brownstonehomeinspection.com

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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OP based on tenant’s approach with you, I would definitely hire Jack Jaffa or other comparable compliance expert to advise you on this (or even manage it for you) instead of managing it without such advice. Hotels can get expensive, and there is a good chance that you are not actually responsible for providing alternative housing. Many NYC tenants quickly and incorrectly claim landlord is required to expense hotel accommodations for what they assume are hazardous environments that have zero time allowance for conditions correction.
It is important to note the difference between RRP lead safe certification issued via EPA versus lead inspection and licenses issued by New York. Since your tenant seems litigious then at very least I recommend requiring contractor to have RRP certificate: https://www.epa.gov/lead/renovation-repair-and-painting-rrp-program-consumers
It is also worthwhile for you obtaining this free and quick online visual lead hazard inspection assessment certification: https://apps.hud.gov/offices/lead/training/visualassessment/h00101.htm

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Tenant texted that they do not want to go to the apartment before it is tested snd they are finding hotel till Thursday.
They are away on vacation from Friday and supposed to come back Monday night.

Inspection is scheduled for Thursday.
I tried my best to explain that even if it could be possible that her very renovated apartment could still have some possible spots of concern to fix it is not likely that our apartment has to be considered a high hazard area that toddler should not be entered.
I so regret that we did not have testing kit with us on Thursday when we rushed to check on the apartment because hd and lowes were out of it.
Also tenant said that pediatrician recommended her to do vein test that is more accurate
After i wrote her that any lead level is not good but finger priks tend to run higher.
I confirmed that we are willing to test the apartment and fix what is needed and it shouldnot be too much but she seems to want our blood. She was on the verge or rude.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Tenant texted that they do not want to go to the apartment before it is tested snd they are finding hotel till Thursday.
They are away on vacation from Friday and supposed to come back Monday night.

Inspection is scheduled for Thursday.
I tried my best to explain that even if it could be possible that her very renovated apartment could still have some possible spots of concern to fix it is not likely that our apartment has to be considered a high hazard area that toddler should not be entered.
I so regret that we did not have testing kit with us on Thursday when we rushed to check on the apartment because hd and lowes were out of it.
Also tenant said that pediatrician recommended her to do vein test that is more accurate
After i wrote her that any lead level is not good but finger priks tend to run higher.
I confirmed that we are willing to test the apartment and fix what is needed and it shouldnot be too much but she seems to want our blood. She was on the verge or rude.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Home inspector is correct that you do not want an RRP certified contractor advising you about lead removal. However, nor would I hire a lead inspection/encapsulation/removal licenced contractor to manage my legal liabilities. In fact, I have had to correct lead abatement technicians after they misinformed my tenants about what the landlord needed to do. Lead contractors are experts about working with lead, not usually about concerning themselves about landlord liabilities.
You could try to charm and luck your way through while being a good guy problem resolver as home inspector suggests.
I prefer to defer to compliance experts for comprehensive advice for most responsible path forward in dicey situations like this

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I have checked the city guidlines. We have to follow city guidelines on this but not exactly hire lead certified team to fix things.
The area we are touching is 1sf, it should be 100sf+ when we required to hire led certified renovators. Or to fix city violation which we do not have or replacing old windows.

The source is
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/fix-lead-paint-hazards-english.pdf

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lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I have checked the city guidlines. We have to follow city guidelines on this but not exactly hire lead certified team to fix things.
The area we are touching is 1sf, it should be 100sf+ when we required to hire led certified renovators. Or to fix city violation which we do not have or replacing old windows.

The source is
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/fix-lead-paint-hazards-english.pdf

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justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I am not sure i would move on the fireplace thing until a lead invrstigator looks at it. Only becase if that is not the source and you think you fixed it and this goes on for 4 more months and the baby’s lead spikes, they are coming in anyway. I don’t think you wsnt to guess with this. A lot of us guess with a lot with thing around buildings (usually leaks) and we rarely nail it on the first go around. That does sound logical though.

Or did i miss something here? Is that contractor a lead abatement person? Untrained contractors, me included, do not know enough to guide a homeowner on this. Rrp is safe work practices. Someone who is licensed in this has to direct it.

I say it again, first order of business is have a conversation with an investigator. I might call one and throw questions at them just for the education. The education alone could allay a lot of fear. I will call just for the experience.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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If the landlord does nothing and the lead spikes the city is going to come in whether or not this is from the house or not. I said it above and you said it; you are presumed guilty. I dealt with the city on this less than 10 mos ago and the only reason they went away is because i am an adult.

If this is coming from a daycare, the city already knows about it because they already have high lead levels from other children and have checked that out. Find out what daycare that baby might go to and call the city and ask about the day care. Anonymously. If they track them or have a file.

And by the way, ALL of these houses have lead. We KNOW/KNEW that from the get go. I don’t think a wise person would advocate spending the money investigating what we know is there. And probably well encapsulated. Its about testing the surfaces where the child might crawl and things they might touch, maybe even bedding if the child is sleeping undet a tin ceiling that has open seems in it? If you test those areas and find it, deal with it. That is what you will have t o do anyway to stop this and satisfy the city and courts if this goes south, as the others think it could. We know they are correct.

To manage this you must make that call to the lead investigator. Did you do that? Call the inspector and engage them in a conversation about the realities of finding the source that might be on a surface. On the floor. They might have done so many of these that they have an idea what is going on while still on the phone with you.. as for the liability concerns, the inspector has probably been summoned to court as a witness and he or she can probably tell you how a report can be used against you.

Keep in mind the lead investigator will probably be able to guide clean up of surfaces and direct action to stop further dust or whatever.

Don’t clean anything until you talk to an inspector because you need to locate the source to stop it. I mean on a surface. Not what is encapsulated. If you clean now, it is like taking an aspirin for a brain tumor and it might reappear.

You will have to do something. You are already guilty as far as they are concerned.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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OP make sure your contractor has an up to date RRP lead safe contractor certificate issue by the EPA. Do not proceed without verifying that.
If you are concerned that your tenants may sue if results are positive, and if you don’t have a lead compliance expert assisting you already then I highly recommend you contact Jack Jaffa. I have been hiring them for several years to send my required annual safety notices. They have legal on their staff. They will advise you as to any requirements such as XRF lead inspection that may apply here.
I hired Jaffa as recently as this week to attend hearings for some DOB violations assessed on a building newly under my management