Tenant wants lead testing.
Y ou mean testing?
for an obvious rea sons I could not recommend the comany who did that testing for us. The guy who did he testing did a good job reading and collecting tests.
But the the sloppiness with sen ding results and how they dealt w it h our questions – I w ould not recommend them.
lucie
in General Discussion 2 years and 2 months ago
172
Please log in, in order to post replies!
172 replies
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago
The landlord’s responsibility is to locate the source (inspector) and fix the problem. Fixing the problem includes encapsulation.
Keep a record of the inspection in case the city asks for it.
Be aware that if the tennant does not feel this is being dealt with, the city’s notice to tennant’s advises them to call 311.
It’s on the ‘net. I just read it.
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago
I must be missing something here in this very long hyperventilating thread, but I see a lot of panic by the OP and the respondents and I don’t understand why. A tenant’s child in a highly renovated house has a somewhat elevated lead level whose source is unknown and an owner who seems willing to do what is necessary to assure that here house is lead free. Isn’t the simplest thing is to hire a testing firm (one was recommended above). They either will find no lead or will find some places with lead and propose mitigations which the OP seems willing to perform. Again, am I missing something or shouldn’t this solve the problem of the apartment being a possible lead source?
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago
Bob, read what the op says about wanting to allow the tenant to suggest the test and read how many times i and someone else mention lead inspector and how many times others mention attoneys and insurance agents as if they are going to help after the fact when the concern is a child’s health.and safety.
Calling a lawyer is not pro active. It is reactive. Calling the city health dept and asking them what to do is pro active.
markwalker | 2 years and 3 months ago
The city offers lead testing kits for water.
https://www.nyc.gov/content/leadfree/pages/request-water-test-kit
If anyone is wondering about their plumbing.
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
Panic is because I realize how vulnerable our position is. Scared park slope parent type of tenant, also, somewhat above average busy history of complains and demands (based on our 20 years experience).
Also, new parent, new baby, naturally they will be overprotective.
I read already that there are no normal lead level. 3.5 the threshold is not normal either, 1 is not good as well. 0.1 is not good for the sake of argument!
Theoretically.
The threshold of 3.5 only means that the 97% of the USA kids younger then 6 (whatever the method to measure this) are measured on or below this threshold.
This threshold keeps falling when CDC gets to review it once in sevetal years due to the fact that the dangerously high sources are constantly eliminated in the country. Before 2012 97% of this group were measured 10 or lower, before 2020 – 5%, after 2020 – 3.5. And we do not discuss the method of measuring.
My source of panic is that it seems no matter what we do – i am guilty because i am a landlord who owns house built before 1960s (1885 to be exact).
Common sence says that the levels that are documented in medical science as obviously dangerous and poisonous : >30 – most probably come from the habitat, from the house where child lives.
3.8? It is a gray area. It is almost a “theshold”. Dangerous because any level is dangerous theoretically nevertheless. But probably lead ladden house could produce much higher numbers.
We are willing to review and test the apartment. And remediate if something will be found just to help the situation with the baby. But I am scared of a canworm of lawsuites and such.
I am scared to mention to this tenants that prick on the gingernails and toenails (most common method of testing) could produce falsly higer tesults then blood drawn from vienn (and who does it if given a choice to their baby). Because it might look like am trying to play the danger down and avoud my responsibility and lawsuit.
I am scared to rush and fix small couple of things that we had noticed during our last visit (that exposed size of a dollar area of paint where upper layer is chipped and crambling area at the bottom of the non-working fireplace). I was scared to rush and fix it before the inspection – what if it might look like cover up of the crime.
Then common sence prevailed to eliminate a possible danger when we noticed it and we are fixing it on Monday.
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
Panic is because I realize how vulnerable our position is. Scared park slope parent type of tenant, also, somewhat above average busy history of complains and demands (based on our 20 years experience).
Also, new parent, new baby, naturally they will be overprotective.
I read already that there are no normal lead level. 3.5 the threshold is not normal either, 1 is not good as well. 0.1 is not good for the sake of argument!
Theoretically.
The threshold of 3.5 only means that the 97% of the USA kids younger then 6 (whatever the method to measure this) are measured on or below this threshold.
This threshold keeps falling when CDC gets to review it once in sevetal years due to the fact that the dangerously high sources are constantly eliminated in the country. Before 2012 97% of this group were measured 10 or lower, before 2020 – 5%, after 2020 – 3.5. And we do not discuss the method of measuring.
My source of panic is that it seems no matter what we do – i am guilty because i am a landlord who owns house built before 1960s (1885 to be exact).
Common sence says that the levels that are documented in medical science as obviously dangerous and poisonous : >30 – most probably come from the habitat, from the house where child lives.
3.8? It is a gray area. It is almost a “theshold”. Dangerous because any level is dangerous theoretically nevertheless. But probably lead ladden house could produce much higher numbers.
We are willing to review and test the apartment. And remediate if something will be found just to help the situation with the baby. But I am scared of a canworm of lawsuites and such.
I am scared to mention to this tenants that prick on the gingernails and toenails (most common method of testing) could produce falsly higer tesults then blood drawn from vienn (and who does it if given a choice to their baby). Because it might look like am trying to play the danger down and avoud my responsibility and lawsuit.
I am scared to rush and fix small couple of things that we had noticed during our last visit (that exposed size of a dollar area of paint where upper layer is chipped and crambling area at the bottom of the non-working fireplace). I was scared to rush and fix it before the inspection – what if it might look like cover up of the crime.
Then common sence prevailed to eliminate a possible danger when we noticed it and we are fixing it on Monday.
Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago
Bob, it seems you are missing the liability concern.
Do the tenants sue the landlord if an unencapsulated source of lead is discovered upon testing? Possibly yes.
Does the landlord want to cause their own exposure to this risk by testing 100% of the property? Probably not.
Does this mean the landlord doesn’t care about the kid’s health? Of course not.
Lead exposure comes from many places. Possible it came from the house. Also possible it came from the kid’s diet, daycare, play areas, etc.
It seems the OP has good concern for the kid’s health and also for protecting against potential claims that the house is what caused the kid’s elevated lead levels. If a positive test came from the house then it would be difficult to scientifically prove that the house caused the elevated levels (as opposed to only being a possible contributing source). Based on experience, numerous people and agencies are likely to assume and accuse landlord of being the one and only cause of h arm to kid if a positive lead test is found in the house. Our litigious society can unfortunately be not very forgiving or understanding in difficult situations like this
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
“Size of the dollar area” sounds bad. I meant size of the metal dollar.
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
“Size of the dollar area” sounds bad. I meant size of the metal dollar.
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago
Another pro active move. Take advantage of it.
Things go wrong in businesses and in office buildings (think of being a landlord as running a business). People who manage businesses and buildings and contractors like me encounter issues everday. Sometimes they are issues we bring about but most often they are unforeseen problems brought about by others. Any contractor who tells you (i am a contractor) they have never had a customer unhappy about something on a job is full of s**t. I have someone not happy about something now in my door business and i have to deal with it and make it right. YOU have an unhappy customer right now.
When something goes wrong, make it about THEM. Forget lawyers. When i f up in my contracting business or when something goes wrong in a building, do you think we call insurance agents and lawyers? Hell no. That is not what we are paid to do and if we know our jobs we already know our responsibilities anyway and more than the lawyers anyway. Know this about running a business or being a landlord; you are automatically responsi ble. And guilty. This is what we do: get our asses in gear fast. It is as much about the optics to allay the customer’s (tenants and office workers in commercial are customers) fear as it is about correcting what is wrong and MITIGATING so it does not get worse and so that if for some reason it does, you have a report to say it is not you or a plan in place if need be.
The self test shows the customer that you are doing something right away. They will like seeing you crawl around on the floor with test swabs.
Calling a lead inspector and having a conversation with that person will tell you what the realities are and what they will be able to tell you and not be able to tell you.
Having a lead inspector come in will hopefully tell you if the problem is there and give you a defense if it is not. The optics are that you did not worry about a thousand dollars when the child’s health was an issue. Customer will like this. So will the city.
If you do not find where the lead the child is ingesting is comeing from (i am thinking dust from air movement or rub wear), you keep looking on your own with test swabs in other parts of the building in case there is dust. The swabs will mean nothing in a court of law but save them along with the report from the inspector to show the city that you did ALL you can.
See if soil can be tested even if that family has not been in that spot. This you can do by sending it to a lab cheap. Test it anyway so if the city comes knocking, you know where you might have a concern or maybe dug it out and put fresh soil.
If the inspector finds obvious concerns, fix them.
No matter what the lead inspector’s detrrmination is, you purchase lead wipes. Let the tenant see the box. Get down on your hands and knees and clean everything. Right after the inspector leaves. If you make repairs, more lead wipes. Keep the box.
Ignore everything else that has been said here and take it from someone who has worked in buildings in a supervisory or management capacity since october of 1990 and HAS NEVER BEEN SUED OR SERVED PAPERS AND HAS NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE A LICENSING BOARD AND WHOSE BOSSES HAVE NEVER BEEN SERVED PAPERS BECAUSE OF THEIR INACTION OR WRONG ACTION (i have been handed fire department violations more than once but even those i have gotten out of, for the most part and i could have been handed dozens more but because i respond with action, i have avoided some) and has had to mitigate dozens of situations like this where someone could have been sued or where someone could have called the authorities such as the dob or health department. You have to take appropriate action right now. I have told you what it is.
A big part of the issues people have on this board is NOT knowing how to manage a situation. This is how you manage.
cate | 2 years and 3 months ago
Jeremy’s comment above is spot on.
Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago
OP this is a reliable expert agency regarding these matters. Not free, and maybe not inexpensive but worth an inquiry call if you are still looking for the best course of action
https://www.jackjaffa.com
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
Yes, I understand. We were always proactive in fixing things.
The question is will it really help if tenant decide to sue us.
I asked my contractor to do the video on Monday when they will be tiling te bottpm of the fireplace.
It is a small atea 2′ x1′ and the outer edge started to cramble.
I asked the tenant to remove rugs, mats, toys from the living room.
I instructed my contractor, we discussed this and he will make a tent from wet old sheets around the fireplave (i always have a laundered old cotton sheets supply in case we need it for some covering up. It is better to use together with plastic sheets).
I specifically stressed not to disturb or force anything but jently remove what is loose, wash the area, cover it with the layer of thinset and put the tile at the whole bottom of the fireplace 2 sf.
He will be cutting tile to fit in front of the building.
I also asked to surround the area with the barriet of yet another layer of wet sheets on the floor.
And they will make a video of the process. Tenants will be away this weekend.
I do not know if it helps. I asked contractor to do a strips test before (hopefully he will be able to buy it at his home depot) but fix this small spit nevertheless
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
Yes, I understand. We were always proactive in fixing things.
The question is will it really help if tenant decide to sue us.
I asked my contractor to do the video on Monday when they will be tiling te bottpm of the fireplace.
It is a small atea 2′ x1′ and the outer edge started to cramble.
I asked the tenant to remove rugs, mats, toys from the living room.
I instructed my contractor, we discussed this and he will make a tent from wet old sheets around the fireplave (i always have a laundered old cotton sheets supply in case we need it for some covering up. It is better to use together with plastic sheets).
I specifically stressed not to disturb or force anything but jently remove what is loose, wash the area, cover it with the layer of thinset and put the tile at the whole bottom of the fireplace 2 sf.
He will be cutting tile to fit in front of the building.
I also asked to surround the area with the barriet of yet another layer of wet sheets on the floor.
And they will make a video of the process. Tenants will be away this weekend.
I do not know if it helps. I asked contractor to do a strips test before (hopefully he will be able to buy it at his home depot) but fix this small spit nevertheless
Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago
OP make sure your contractor has an up to date RRP lead safe contractor certificate issue by the EPA. Do not proceed without verifying that.
If you are concerned that your tenants may sue if results are positive, and if you don’t have a lead compliance expert assisting you already then I highly recommend you contact Jack Jaffa. I have been hiring them for several years to send my required annual safety notices. They have legal on their staff. They will advise you as to any requirements such as XRF lead inspection that may apply here.
I hired Jaffa as recently as this week to attend hearings for some DOB violations assessed on a building newly under my management
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago
If the landlord does nothing and the lead spikes the city is going to come in whether or not this is from the house or not. I said it above and you said it; you are presumed guilty. I dealt with the city on this less than 10 mos ago and the only reason they went away is because i am an adult.
If this is coming from a daycare, the city already knows about it because they already have high lead levels from other children and have checked that out. Find out what daycare that baby might go to and call the city and ask about the day care. Anonymously. If they track them or have a file.
And by the way, ALL of these houses have lead. We KNOW/KNEW that from the get go. I don’t think a wise person would advocate spending the money investigating what we know is there. And probably well encapsulated. Its about testing the surfaces where the child might crawl and things they might touch, maybe even bedding if the child is sleeping undet a tin ceiling that has open seems in it? If you test those areas and find it, deal with it. That is what you will have t o do anyway to stop this and satisfy the city and courts if this goes south, as the others think it could. We know they are correct.
To manage this you must make that call to the lead investigator. Did you do that? Call the inspector and engage them in a conversation about the realities of finding the source that might be on a surface. On the floor. They might have done so many of these that they have an idea what is going on while still on the phone with you.. as for the liability concerns, the inspector has probably been summoned to court as a witness and he or she can probably tell you how a report can be used against you.
Keep in mind the lead investigator will probably be able to guide clean up of surfaces and direct action to stop further dust or whatever.
Don’t clean anything until you talk to an inspector because you need to locate the source to stop it. I mean on a surface. Not what is encapsulated. If you clean now, it is like taking an aspirin for a brain tumor and it might reappear.
You will have to do something. You are already guilty as far as they are concerned.
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago
I am not sure i would move on the fireplace thing until a lead invrstigator looks at it. Only becase if that is not the source and you think you fixed it and this goes on for 4 more months and the baby’s lead spikes, they are coming in anyway. I don’t think you wsnt to guess with this. A lot of us guess with a lot with thing around buildings (usually leaks) and we rarely nail it on the first go around. That does sound logical though.
Or did i miss something here? Is that contractor a lead abatement person? Untrained contractors, me included, do not know enough to guide a homeowner on this. Rrp is safe work practices. Someone who is licensed in this has to direct it.
I say it again, first order of business is have a conversation with an investigator. I might call one and throw questions at them just for the education. The education alone could allay a lot of fear. I will call just for the experience.
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
I have checked the city guidlines. We have to follow city guidelines on this but not exactly hire lead certified team to fix things.
The area we are touching is 1sf, it should be 100sf+ when we required to hire led certified renovators. Or to fix city violation which we do not have or replacing old windows.
The source is
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/fix-lead-paint-hazards-english.pdf
[119DF140-5A48-41B3-83C7-2E80479CE333](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:dkqL:119df1405a4841b383c72e80479ce333.png.jpg)
lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago
I have checked the city guidlines. We have to follow city guidelines on this but not exactly hire lead certified team to fix things.
The area we are touching is 1sf, it should be 100sf+ when we required to hire led certified renovators. Or to fix city violation which we do not have or replacing old windows.
The source is
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/fix-lead-paint-hazards-english.pdf
[119DF140-5A48-41B3-83C7-2E80479CE333](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:dkqL:119df1405a4841b383c72e80479ce333.png.jpg)