Seeking expert in structural design around vestibule & inner door of brownstone

Construction knowledge helps.

justinromeu26

in General Discussion 2 years and 4 months ago

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citizenjane | 2 years and 5 months ago

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After two years of reconnaissance, we believe the source of a clothing moth problem is in the walls at the intersection of the front door vestibule, the inner door, and adjacent corner of the livingroom on the parlor floor. The moth nest could also be in the same areas on the floor directly above. In 1-2 months, a trusted expert will inject moth killing spray into the crevices of the walls in this area.

I’m looking for someone who can explain how these areas were built in a traditional brownstone, so that the moth killing spray can be injected in the right places (via cutting a small hole in the walls and pressure blasting the spray inside). I’m also interested in how moths may travel within the walls and spaces between the floors, to determine where else to treat. We did this tretment on a more limited basis last summer, and it was only partially successful. We have tried many other ways to get rid of clothing moths. Almost all areas of the house have been taken care of, but this area remains.

If this treatment doesn’t work, we will probably start to tear down the walls and ceilings of the vestibule to figure this out.

Expert advice about the structural design of these areas would be greatly appreciated. Even to be able to see into a current demo of this area could be super helpful.

Thank you very much in advance!

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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i am only guessing but they probably have a top plate at the top of the studs for the vestibule wall. that top plate will set below the joists and on top of the studs. and the studs should be 16 on center. if you can get a stud finder you can locate them. they will sit on a header over the door. and you want to inject poison over the door in like 4 spaces between studs. that poison will not rise above the top plate – so it will not go between the floor joists.

in so far as getting up in between the joists above the vestibule. they will run across the house. so you will want to find the one to the front of that vestibule door and the one behind it (to the inside of the house). perhaps one sits right over the vestibule wall (if you are unlucky; then you have to drill on two sides of that wall). what you would do to hit those cavities is drill a couple of holes just street side of the vestibule wall. keep in mind the joists run across so you only need one or two holes to flood that cavity and if the next joist is on the other side of the wall, you will not have to drill holes inside the house.

you can drill holes and stick probes up there and send them front and back and you will hit the joists. you can send them sideways as well. you might hit bracing but that will be 1x? and the poison will pass them.

the interiors of the old houses are framed the same way they are today with some changes only in materials. layout is all the same, joists across top plates above partition walls and studs below. the only thing that has changed is the exterior walls on frame houses. not the interior.

nothing special or different about any of these walls.

if you buy a hand held bore scope, you can drill these holes and look inside. these things are like $79. on amazon now.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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a stud finder will help you here. i have one that i use in my own house and even with the plaster and lath it locates them. have to make a couple of passes. this is a modern electric one i think made by a company called zircon. i think.

once you locate one stud/joist, it is usually easy to locate another.

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Good luck and watch out for old gas lines that are still active. Ours used to go right though that area.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Op. While i am 90% sure of that wall construction simply because i have build walls (i took a construction class at city tech and this is what the class was about) i currently have a need to buy a thermal imaging camera for another customer. It is going to be something i will use as part of my home i spection business to find leaks and voids in walls and pipe locations. If you wish. I can shoot an image at that wall and ceiling and it will show me pipes, joists, beams, and now that i think of it, it might show that infestation. I will read about that now. If you brought me in to do this, i would be willing to drill the needed holes for the exterminator if he specified a size.

I am working sort of close by you.

Steve
Tinker’s Wagon &
Brownstonehomeinspection.com

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Ok, the thermal imaging camera can spot insects in walls.

citizenjane | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Hi HomeInspector and cate, Thank you so much for your input – that is super helpful. I somehow missed your responses (was out of town for a week). Thanks for helping explain the construction design of the vestibule area and surrounding walls. The thermal imaging camera sounds like it could be super helpful. I will digest all of this info and provide a full response tomorrow (Tuesday). THANK YOU! 🙂

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Hey, i need to play with this more. I can not get the studs to show up in my house with the walls heated. I want to find a house with an internal cold vestibule with heated rooms on the other side to see if i can spot studs. I cannot do it on my house as the vestibule is extrrior and brick. No sticking.

citizenjane | 2 years and 5 months ago

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ok.

hasibur.rahman07 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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You can see studs not sure you can always see pests. Usually the vestibule is brick with wood enframement next to the door areas. Why don’t you call a structural engineer and ask over the phone?

hasibur.rahman07 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Btw I had clothing moths and they usually like to live in carpets and upholstery. I don’t think they would be in a vestibule with no fabric. What makes you think they are in there. Sorry if I missed this somewhere.

No studs in that area in my house. Just brick and wood. but that’s not to say someone else’s house is different.

hasibur.rahman07 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Did you try the wasps? https://anatisbioprotection.com/en/news/moth-clothes-trichogrammas.html

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Thank you vard. My thought is, and i read this elsewhere, the moth nest will form a blanket of heat or insulation which will change the temperature of the wall.

Most of the inside vestibule walls are simply studs and plaster. Nothing fancy.

hasibur.rahman07 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Yes you may spot a nest not individual pests. Based on the heat maps, it would be possible to open small areas and check for pests. Opening plaster is not the easiest.
I pasted a Canadian link for the wasps but there are US sources.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Right. It would take a mass. The thing about the moth nest is it becomes a mass of yuck.

citizenjane | 2 years and 5 months ago

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@vard01 – Thanks for sharing your ideas. We think the moths are in the walls because we have no carpets, open clothes, etc. and they are coming from the vestibule area which is airtight. we’ve been dealing with this for 2+ years. AND there is horse hair in the lath and animal hair is a favorite source of food for clothing moths.

Re: biological exterminants (wasps), do you know of any source in the US? or anyone who used them for this purpose who could serve as a reference?

Finally, might you know of any structural engineer who would be willing to speak with me about vestibule design and the nexus of walls in that area and in the inner side of the door (ie in corridor and parlor floor living room)?

Thanks again!

citizenjane | 2 years and 5 months ago

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@HomeInspector – Using a bore scope is an interesting idea.

Re: thermal imagine detector, our vestibule is not heated – you would be more than welcomed to try out your thermal imagine detector there for finding studs. We could even turn off the heat inside the house to help. But I realize this may not be convenient. (BTW, we have a cheap stud finder and it has also never worked.)

Do you think that it might be possible to find the original architectural drawings for the house with the city somewhere?

Finally, there is still a very small chance that somehow moths are coming in from the outside through some cracks in the front door (even though it was deemed likely impossible). Perhaps we should get the front door re-hung, but we are on a limited budget.

Oh, the joys never end… 🙂

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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I would need the heat on warm inside and the vestibule cold. I just did it here.

Why not email me.

hasibur.rahman07 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Engineer http://afminspections.com Tony Marmo