Roofer recommendation & solar
To all considering solar – please just get an estimate personalized to your situation instead of market based averages or hypotheticals – it may or may not make sense for you!
greenworks
in General Discussion 5 years and 10 months ago
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stuyheights | 5 years and 11 months ago
Closing on a 2 unit double duplex we plan on holding as an investment property. The property needs a new roof and I have gathered estimates from Royal, Premiere and SAS. I know Royal has a good reputation but are substantially higher than the other two. Has anyone had any experience with SAS? They have excellent reviews online. I didn’t intend on adding solar but it got me thinking. Would you?
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
Go up to your roof and look around. See what you DONT see on any other building? Solar Panels. They make absolutely no sense at all financially (even with state discounts/rebates.) Especially when you can go “time of use” rates from ConEd…. electric for 8 cents per kW/h.
jimhillra | 5 years and 11 months ago
Keep in mind that NYC DOB BB 2019-10 requires all new roofs, including those that are replacements of the entire roof assembly (which means the wood roof sheathing under the membrane) to be Green roofs or have solar.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/bldgs_bulletins/bb_2019-010.pdf
Guest User | 5 years and 11 months ago
Also if you have to replace your entire roof now is the time to do solar. I know people who have gotten more back in tax credits between City, State & Federal then the solar system cost them as they had to redo their entire roof as the structure needed updatings as well as all the parts above it. All of that work qualifies as costs to add up in addition to the solar work that the rebates are based on and gave them an instant payback period.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 11 months ago
JJQ: Why do you feel solar makes no sense financially? We’re expecting approx. 85% rebate on our installation. Granted, we are able to access an additional NYS historic district rebate but, even w/o that, the rebates/credits are significant. Estimated payback is 4 years.
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
SOLAR POWER
It just keeps getting worse, every time I look into it.
I have outlined the economics below, and annotated with REAL WORLD data to back up my observations.
I have NOT included the cost of running my heat pump (heat and air con)— which would make the following even worse for me.
Solar System Specs:
The following seems to be the standard system marketed in NY now because it meets minimum FEDERAL guidelines for tax credit.
5kWh System (Averages 1kWh over 24hours; or about 24kWh/day)
20 panels
20% Efficiency
2.5% Deterioration
Install Cost $40K (as documented below)
After Tax Credit Cost $27K
********************
1) My CURRENT cost of energy WITHOUT SOLAR
— Last bill: August 2019
— Total usage: 770 kWh; Total cost: $217.25
— Cost Per kWh: 28.18/kWh Cents
— NOTE: I pay lowest Small Residential Rate, EL2 (It would be CHEAPER for basic residential)
— NOTE: This is the ALL-IN cost, to keep it simple vs breaking the bill down into Supply & Delivery & Tax components
OBSERVATIONS ON ABOVE
Basically my house uses about 15-16 kWh/day on week days, and perhaps 50% more on the weekend.
Thats because we use the Washing Machine and Clothes Dryer on the weekend only.
The Washing machine and Clothes Dryer are energy hogs (2-4kWh/per use/per machine) and increase our AVERAGE daily consumption a lot.
Our DAILY consumption (16 kWh/day) looks like this:
7kWh Fridge
2kWh Lights (10 60W bulbs, 3 hours per day)
2kWh Wine Fridge
1kWh Coffee Maker and Toaster
1kWh Dish Washer
1kWh LED TVs, Rokus, Telephones, Alexas (in each of 4 rooms)
1kWh Computers, iPad, Cell Phones and associated chargers (in each of 2 rooms)
1kWh Phantom Power (50 devices drawing 1-4W/hr)
So to make the math easy lets just say we use 20kWh/day.
So on average (not including Heatpump) we use:
Usage: 20kWh/day * 31 days/month = 620kWh/Mnth
Cost= 600kWh * 28.18 = $174/Month
https://www.coned.com/en/save-money/energy-saving-programs/time-of-use
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2) Monthly DOLLAR cost of SOLAR
— Equipment Financing: $27K, 20 years at 5.25%; $2,184/year; $182/month
— Cost of upfront payment of Tax Rebates: Ill skip this, but it is relevant
— Property Tax Increase: $40K * .05 * .15; $300/year; $25/month
— Equipment Replacement Insurance: $27K * .02; $540/year; $41/month
— Equipment Maintenance: $150 visit + $10 panel, $500/year; $41/month
— Increase Liability Insurance: $5-15/panel; $200/year; $16/month
— $305/Month
********************
3) Monthly SOLAR NET BILLING REBATE
— Solar Max Production at proposed efficiency: 5kWh * .80% Efficiency; 1kWh
— Daily Solar Energy Production: 1kWh * 24h/day; 24kWh/day
— Net Billing Hours: 24kWh/day – 20kWh/day = 4kWh/day
— Net Billing Rebate: 4kWh/day * .10kWh rebate; 40 cents day * 31 days/mnth
— $12.40/mnth
https://www.energysage.com/net-metering/con-edison/
********************
4) My EXPECTED cost of energy WITH SOLAR per month
— Cost I PAY Per Month: $305
— Cost Per Month with Net Billing Discount: $305-12.40
— $292/month
********************
********************
5) BOTTOM LINE
— $292/month WITH solar VS. $174/month WITHOUT solar
OBSERVATIONS ON ABOVE
Its actually MUCH worse than the scenario I present above because of three factors which are not so straight forward to compute as monthly expenses:
1) UPFRONT COSTS
— Although there is an advertised 50% tax credit on equipment, the credit is actually capped at around $13K.
— The “Credit” MUST be recouped over 5 years; which basically means I have financed the TOTAL UPFRONT costs $40K NOT $27K for 25% of the life of the project
— This adds aprox another $50/month to the cost (well, actually a little less, but the scenario is complicated to explain because it involves tax credits and financing data)
2) BREAKAGE
— The worst Info I can find on the net explains that some of the equipment simply breaks, and will need to be replaced within 20 years
— I absolutely know this is true (remind me to tell you the solar story of my parents neighbor), but putting a price on it is tough
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/solar.html
3) DETERIORATION
— This is perhaps the most egregious problem
— The solar cells deteriorate over time and produce anywhere from 1-5% PER YEAR **ACCUMULATED** INEFFICIENCY
— Again, Its tough to explain, but after 20 years the system would only be operating at 350W/h (That’s WATTS not KILOWATTS)
— The deterioration basically needs to be averaged into the project cost, but basically means I would get ZERO Net Billing discount over the term of the project
— Well, actually worse— Id be paying for 12kWh/day on average without any discount
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
above explained simply—- The REAL WORLD cost to install a 5 kWh system in NYC area (including equipment, installation, architect/permit fees, and electrician) is about $25k. Just focusing on financing (no breakage, maintenance, etc) you’re talking $150/month over 20 years. A larger household (not like like mine which only pulls about 16 kW/day) might just break even ….. But considering “Time of Use” electric billing at aprox 15 cents kW/h (my average YEARLY cost per kWh) … I’m looking at Aprox $75/month plus taxes. Or about 1/2 Solar cost. Until Solar efficiency doubles, the only way it makes sense is with major Government discounts on the equipment and install. And even then you are faced with maintenance issues and reinstalling everything every 20 years.
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
Just one final thought on Solar. About 15 years ago the Feds told the States to make electric costs more efficient by using renewables. Off the top of my head I think the mandate for NY was a target of 100% renewable by 2030 (off the top of my head.) The state power providers looked at this scenario and determined they were facing a “space shuttle like” technology problem.
15 years ago Solar efficiency sucked (still does)… But is very gradually getting better.
So the electric companies decided NOT TO INVEST IN RENEWABLES… but pass the costs along to the home owners if possible WITHOUT MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENTS until the technology efficiency improves.
Very few households “bit.”
So the providers had to twist the Gov’s arms into providing discounts to homeowners to install solar… this is the only way solar makes any sense.
The whole scheme has been packaged to the consumer as an earth friendly, low cost alternative to standard electric billing/consumption…. but is actually just a way to offload equipment financing REQUIRED by the Feds onto homeowners.
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
…. on to homeowners AND the taxpayer (who eventually pays for all the discounts.)
JohnHancock | 5 years and 11 months ago
Mythbusters! Thanks for the real life breakdown, always wondered about the real costs involved. May make sense for some but not as clear cut as they make it seem
resident2 | 5 years and 11 months ago
I put Solar Panels on a Beach House in Nassau County. PSEG do not make a big issue of it & no problem getting permits quickly & easily. I paid cash; ($19,000) better return than leaving it in a mutual fund etc. I run A/C all summer 24 hours a day & augment my heating during day light hours all winter. Costs me a total of $135.00 a year in “electric charges” , basically the costs to be hooked into the grid. Estimated savings approx $4-5,000 a year!
NYC buildings department & Con Ed in the City drive up costs in the City.
jjq | 5 years and 11 months ago
Yes. Your instal costs of $19K is about 1/2 of what it would cost here in the city. (See my post item “Monthly Dollar Cost of Solar” above which includes a link to a DOB cost filing for a typical Solar System in Bay Ridge.) I’ve looked at about a dozen NYC filings– and they all come in at $40-50K before rebates.
Im NOT questioning it– But Id like to see how you figure you are saving $4-5K/year…??
Here in Brooklyn a 5 kW Solar system working for FOUR solar hours a day produces aprox 20 KWh’s of electric per day– Thats about $4.00-5.00/day electricity depending on which ConEd plan you are on.
greenworks | 5 years and 11 months ago
It may be a totally different scenario now but we paid cash for our solar in around 2015 here in Brooklyn and our numbers and experience are much closer to resident2s. I’m assuming the giant numbers you’re throwing around are bc you live in a giant house then, didn’t have the patience to wade thru your numbers lol.
We ran similar numbers and it was a no brainer paying cash for us. . Loans and leases made no sense financially.
And if I look around my nabe about 20 percent have solar and I’m not even in a “progressive” area.
Again it may make no sense if you do it now or take a long term loan or lease but it’s been all kinds of awesome for us.
resident2 | 5 years and 10 months ago
The $4-5,000 a year that I am saving is from NOT paying the huge bills to PSEG for electricity & the savings on my National Grid bills in winter for heat.
Very simple; no convoluted spread sheets.
I could probably save more by buying an electric run around car and more electrical appliances, like lawn mowers etc, because the Grid still gets a lot of my surplus.
Leasing is a rip off and gets complicated if you want to sell: read the fine print. And financing it also cuts into your expenses & ties up credit. But if you have savings accounts paying you almost nothing in interest, that you then get taxed on! My “free” electricity is not even taxed! Tax free income.
jjq | 5 years and 10 months ago
I’m not trying to be a troll here.
I did my calculations provided above about three years ago. I’m genuinely interested in the CURRENT state and costs of solar vs “Time of Use” billing in NYC (less than 11 cents kWh). I just can’t see how it works for a residential installation. with typical use of 16-20kW/day.
greenworks | 5 years and 10 months ago
Not trolling, these things need to be discussed.
2015 or current, as both resident and I have mentioned, in 90 percent of cases, financing or leasing solar is a losers game. I skimmed your numbers and noticed you included financing. Nope, no way no how will financing/leasing solar make financial sense for most people. Pay cash. We scrimped and saved to do so bc financing made ZERO sense.
Also after skimming your numbers, we didn’t realize many of the costs over time you assume such as replacement, etc.
We did have one neighbor who installed where he leased I think and it made sense under the terms he got. He has electric heating in a giant home and his heating bills were north of 700 bucks a month prior to solar. But in most cases, financing leasing is automatic no go.
jjq | 5 years and 10 months ago
I’m just say’in $20k worth of equipment just doesn’t drop out of the sky. It needs to be paid for— even if out of savings. The straight on cost of dividing $20k/240 months (life of equipment) is $85/month. Not to mention the “invested potential”— maybe another $20/month at a VERY reasonable 2% rate. Maybe this is a sophisticated way to look at it—considering opportunity cost— but as I do MY numbers (again, not trolling here) … in my situation I’d rather pay 11 cents a kWh and have no additional equipment costs or worries.
As I mentioned, I don’t see many solar installs here in Bay Ridge. Basically 3 that I know of in 30 square blocks of Brownstones (like mine) … I gotta believe it’s simply because it’s not economically viable.
But again, you’re mileage may vary.
Putnamdenizen | 5 years and 10 months ago
jjq – a quick glance at your figures show me that you include somethings in your calculations which I am not paying and are quite significant – replacement insurance (540/year), maintenance (500/year), increased liability insurance (300/year). Those are a significant part of what you claim are an additional $305/month in costs. It really makes me wonder about that accuracy of your numbers. Obviously a clear eyed look at the numbers is useful, but I don’t think you are quite there.
resident2 | 5 years and 10 months ago
Solar Panels are also a hedge against future rate increases.