replacing old radiators with modern ones

At this point, I have used several engineering textbooks on the topic and consulted with a number of engineers and plumbers, including you. There are a lot of reasons why systems are built less efficiently, and a lot has to do with cost and time to figure things out to design a robust and efficient system and then properly execute that design, and I can’t possibly cover it all here. There are definitely differences of opinion, and ideas that are good in theory don’t work that well in the field. These comment are a few of my general thoughts based on my own research, interviews, and experimentation in a brownstone. This is from the perspective of an owner, things like callback risk weren’t a primary design concern. But that said, I do actually recommend using an engineer to draw plans for the system and schedule the equipment. But that said, it may be too expensive to be practical. But the drawings make it much less likely a design or construction error will occur that reduces the performance.

hkapstein

in General Discussion 4 years and 4 months ago

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thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 5 months ago

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hello has anyone replaced their old radiators with one like these? https://usa.hudsonreed.com/delta-white-horizontal-single-slim-panel-designer-radiator-25-x-16-5-71164?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIje3Fxa3Q7QIVNAeICR2RCwtHEAQYASABEgJ6YfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I was told this product will only work with closed loop hot water systems, how do I know if I have this or not?

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 5 months ago

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Post a wide-shot picture of your boiler and I’ll tell you.

Guest User | 4 years and 5 months ago

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if you have a single pipe going to your radiator then you have a steam system and this will not work. If you have two pipes in every radiator , it is probably hot water. I had a client consider these for a movement but realized that the btus that the hudson reed units put out was so low compared to their cast iron that it was cost prohibitive

cate | 4 years and 5 months ago

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Interesting! I have always wondered about this. Nice looking radiators. Eman, do all radiators of this style have low BTUs? For example, the ultra-expensive Runtals? We have a tiny room with an oversize radiator and I have occasionally thought about replacing it with one of these. Or just a smaller regular radiator.

evan | 4 years and 5 months ago

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I’ve thought about this as well! We have single pipe/steam system radiators and this piqued my interest – a little Googling yielded this company, which seems to produce similarly streamlined looking units: https://steamradiators.com/

hkapstein | 4 years and 5 months ago

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I found the steel radiators supply more BTU per dollar than the cast iron ones, but which unit fits the space and how much BTU is needed and what the water temperature is all effect feasibility. They make multi column steel radiators that get more BTU per linear foot. If you have steam, steamradiators.com does supply units that work, and I had one once in the past and it worked fine. It was in a hallway where a slim unit was a priority. More expensive than cast iron though. For the steel hot water radiators it is cheaper I believe, though it may depend on the the all in cost, and how you need the system to perform.

If appearance is your concern and you have steam, you might look at getting standard cast irene slenderized radiators, and putting a nice cover over them. That way you’ll get any look you want and still have a cheap standard radiator.

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 5 months ago

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We measure the output of a steam radiator by its surface area, a value expressed as equivalent direct radiation or EDR. Every radiator has an EDR rating published somewhere. To convert EDR to BTUs, multiply by 240 for steam and 170 for circulating hot water. The more surface area a radiator has, the more heat it will give off. That’s why a lot of those pretty wall hung radiators pale in comparison to the huge hunk of metal sitting under the window.

scottresidentialgroupnyc | 4 years and 4 months ago

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I replaced 6 old radiators in my house with new smaller modern ones from OSC in Bushwick https://ocsind.com

hkapstein | 4 years and 4 months ago

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@masterplvmber, That is true, but my calculation, on a hot water system, was that BTU for BTU, it was less dollars to gets steel than Cast Iron(CI) rads. Also, FYI, if you buy them from England it’s cheaper than going through hudson reed. However with the covid situation in England, there could be delays right now. Regarding the BTUs for a big hunk of of metal, surface area is one element, but the finish on the radiator and its design also effect the EDR. But there’s other design considerations. A CI radiator is a high mass unit, and so the system will have to operate a long time to heat it up. With steam that’s fine, because all steam boilers are high mass, but in a hot water system I prefer a low mass boiler with low mass radiators. This makes it much easier to do thermostat setbacks and recoveries with smart thermostats, and also to balance the system.

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 4 months ago

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I don’t know what you mean. EDR is surface area which is not affected by a radiator’s finish. You must’ve read something about how the color of a radiator effects its radiant properties. Not the same.
Low mass boilers are generally high-efficiency boilers. Most professionals prefer high mass radiators with low mass boilers because water temperatures can be kept lower. Low mass radiators, like fin tube/baseboard units, require higher water temperatures to initiate convection. That’s a condition that lends itself to higher operating costs and lower seasonal efficiency. For example, I installed a circulating hot water system in a building on S. 8th St in Williamsburgh. It’s got huge cast iron radiators throughout. The high efficiency boilers we installed have never had to make water over 138° to heat the building. If the building had baseboard heaters or similar, we would have to make 170°-180° water to create adequate convection.
I don’t know what would make setback, recovery, smart thermostats, or balance easier by using low mass radiators.
Explain if you’d like.

thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 4 months ago

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https://imgur.com/a/TewfvTk @Master Plvmber please take a look and let me know please. Thank YOU!! [IMG_3954](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:nVY0:img_3954.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3953](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:SH8T:img_3953.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3951](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:eItb:img_3951.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3949](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:GBSn:img_3949.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3950](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:zjL7:img_3950.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3948](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:UOUC:img_3948.jpg.jpg)

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 4 months ago

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You have a steam boiler, probably a 1-pipe steam system, and your pipes are arranged properly but are too small in diameter for that unit.

thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 4 months ago

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thank you, do you have any suggestions on what I can replace these old radiators with if any?

Master Plvmber | 4 years and 4 months ago

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Yes. These: https://www.castrads.com/us/

hkapstein | 4 years and 4 months ago

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The cheapest choice is slenderized cast iron units from OCS or governale or similar. You can put covers on them but that increases the cost. There is a company that makes steel steam radiators. Someone linked to them above.

thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 4 months ago

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thanks, I don’t like how they sit on the ground. Looking for wall mounted ones or ‘floating ones’

hkapstein | 4 years and 4 months ago

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Well you’re covered. Check out the options at https://ocsind.com/products/.

They’ve got wall units, baseboards, even convectors and recessed units. And they appear to all accept steam, although I’d call to double check, or discuss it with your plumber.

thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 4 months ago

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yup yup. thank you all.

thompson.molly99 | 4 years and 4 months ago

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thinking about replacing 4 of them.