move kitchen to cellar?
hello,
We own the basement and cellar level floors of a brownstone that was converted to a 5 unit co-op in the 70s. At the time of conversion, the developer removed part of the floor between the cellar and basement, creating a double-hight living-room/dining-room in the cellar level.
There is egress from the living room to the back garden and stairs leading up to the basement level where the kitchen is currently located.
I’d like to move the kitchen from the basement level to the cellar level so that all the living space is on the same level. getting tired of schlepping food/plates up and down the stairs to the dining table. I would convert the current kitchen area to a study plus bath.
Is there a way to do this legally? What’s the process?
Thank you
elbo71
in General Discussion 3 years and 11 months ago
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41 replies
jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago
chemosphere – thanks for the link, that’s very much what we’re considering, except with even less floor remaining to get under the 33% limit for mezzanine. And this is relevant to Urbandad’s question, as well.
We’re also working with another client right now who is purchasing a property in which part of the basement floor was lowered to an extent where it is more than 50% below grade, making that part a cellar.
The question becomes which part dictates? As I interpret the code, the floor is either all basement or all cellar. I would think the classification would be based upon whether the majority of the floor is a basement or cellar. If 51% complies with basement, then that’s what it is, and vice versa.
In the case of the double-height basement, if the first floor covers more than 50% of the level below, lowering the midpoint to below that required for a basement, then that level would be a cellar. If not, and more than half of the lower level is double-height, then it would be a basement.
hkapstein | 3 years and 10 months ago
Can a single story be part cellar and part basement? Will the recognize the old basement as a mezzanine or would you have to remove the entire floor?
chemosphere | 3 years and 10 months ago
check out 34 hicks https://streeteasy.com/sale/1307760
jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago
I did, and everyone seems positive about it, so we’re hopeful that it will be approved that way.
elbo71 | 3 years and 10 months ago
hi JimHillra – your idea is fantastic! Did you consult with and code specialists or expediters. Would appreciate any tips you can share on how you got approvals. Thanks!!
Thanks for the link Jane, very helpful!
jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago
Yeah, we’re really excited about the idea of doing that in a new project. It will be a great space when it’s all done.
Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago
More than 1/2 above ground is considered a basement and less than 50% is considered a cellar. Twigs, you can check the requirements here as there are some variations : https://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/basement-and-cellar.page
hkapstein | 3 years and 10 months ago
Interesting to know, and that would also technically give you some extra FAR for an addition.
jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago
Yes, at least this is exactly what we’re planning for an upcoming project! Although depending upon the circumstances, there may be limits as to the heights of legal windows.
hkapstein | 3 years and 10 months ago
So technically a cellar is 50% below grade and can’t have a kitchen. But if you have a space that’s 15 feet high with 8 above grade and 7 below, could you call that a basement and make a kitchen in it?
elbo71 | 3 years and 10 months ago
that’s so interesting, thank you for sharing. Yes, I did find the same term @urbandad found, i.e., “Secondary Kitchen for Accessory cooking” but hadn’t realized what it might have been for. Having it for Kosher/non-kosher cooking makes so much sense. Thanks for sharing.
mozeeatupu | 3 years and 10 months ago
Second kitchen was usually a kosher kitchen exemption but not sure if its allowed anymore..
hkapstein | 3 years and 10 months ago
I believe you are allowed to have a “secondary kitchen for accessory cooking” in the cellar. I encountered this provision once when I was researching other legal uses of cellars, and I don’t really know what it means, or whether it would apply to your situation, but I imagine that being secondary would mean a primary kitchen would be required elsewhere. Using the cellar as a dining or living room is probably not allowed, so that may stymie your plans when you go to file.
cate | 3 years and 10 months ago
Great! I look forward to hearing what they say.
elbo71 | 3 years and 10 months ago
Thanks you both!! I’ll chat with a couple architects and report back.
lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 11 months ago
Cate is right. To combine our two points your first step should definitely be to review your current situation with an Architect or Engineer; they will give you your realistic options legally and budget wise.
lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 11 months ago
Cate is right. To combine our two points your first step should definitely be to review your current situation with an Architect or Engineer; they will give you your realistic options legally and budget wise.
cate | 3 years and 11 months ago
OP, I appreciate what a pain this must be to have kitchen and dining/living on separate levels. We have a similar situation. However, generally speaking, it is not legal to have the kitchen in the cellar level. To be legal living space, the level in question must be more than 50 percent above grade when measured from the curb in the front of the house. The double height ceiling may give you some options to play with. Consult with a code expert such as an expediter but in this case I’d strongly advise speaking to an architect with a lot of experience in this area. If you go forward with your plan, you would definitely be wise to use an architect so the potential is maximized. There are way to o many things that could go wrong and you could end up with a blight if not well designed. Usually permit fees are a few thousand. The actual cost of the renovation itself is impossible to guess at without knowing the scope of work — will excavation or structural changes be required, or significant changes to the existing plumbing, or just putting new plumbing and a kitchen in an ar ea that already exists? The first thing I would do is interview a few architects, have one or two over to visit, tell them what you’d like to do, and see what they say about what is possible. Once you have an idea of the scope of work, post here again and we can guess at the costs. (Architects don’t always know.) Let us say you were redoing an existing kitchen and not moving any plumbing. Depending on size and whether you go with Ikea, semi custom or fully custom cabinets and how much linear feet there is of them, etc., you could potentially be talking anywhere from $15,000 to $150,000 I would think, not including designer fees — just materials and labor. (Architects sometimes charge a flat fee, sometimes a percentage of the total costs, sometimes an hourly rate, sometimes a mix. It’s money well spent.)
elbo71 | 3 years and 11 months ago
Thank you.
I am happy to pay the fee and get the required permits to make sure everything is legal and to code.
Any sense of what the fee is? Also, how long would it take to get the permit? Could a general contractor get these for me? or do I need an architect? Will likely need to move the gas line too…
thanks again!