move kitchen to cellar?

hello,

We own the basement and cellar level floors of a brownstone that was converted to a 5 unit co-op in the 70s. At the time of conversion, the developer removed part of the floor between the cellar and basement, creating a double-hight living-room/dining-room in the cellar level.

There is egress from the living room to the back garden and stairs leading up to the basement level where the kitchen is currently located.

I’d like to move the kitchen from the basement level to the cellar level so that all the living space is on the same level. getting tired of schlepping food/plates up and down the stairs to the dining table. I would convert the current kitchen area to a study plus bath.

Is there a way to do this legally? What’s the process?

Thank you

elbo71

in General Discussion 3 years and 11 months ago

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Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Not offended at all and grateful for your insights. There is a level of experience and expertise that you have that I appreciate. Thank you for being patient with my questions.

The DOB rules and filings are interesting as some expediters and architect can also find the right way to sometimes get things approved.

Thanks for sharing the link. I see the additional BIN now which links to 32 Hicks St. which I thought was the similar looking building next to it.

The Merz hous is fantastic, glad you liked it too.

jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago

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I’ve met Chris. He and I were on a Brownstoner panel a couple of years ago. You’re in good hands there.

And that house! wow!

jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Janedrew, there are two BIN’s (Building Identification Numbers) for this property. The first one shows up with no jobs. Click on the second one (https://on.nyc.gov/3cOQrAf), and you’ll see a bunch of applications, as well as the link to the C of O.

And I hope I didn’t offend with the ‘term of convenience’ comment. There are many people on this forum with varying levels of expertise in these matters, so I tend to overexplain sometimes.

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Chris Petri, our plumber is as enthusiastic about design as you are. You might like this one: https://www.curbed.com/2020/11/nyc-townhouse-for-sale-brooklyn-heights-joseph-mary-merz.html

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Hi Jim, thank you. I was aware it was a ‘term of convenience’ not a classification used by DOB. You’re absolutely right, just because it says garden which typically refers to a basement doesn’t mean it is classified as a basement.

Something that’s really interesting here is DOB site shows zero filings so this may have been done without permits…

jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Urbandad, the timing on this is hilarious. I just posted a rant about self-certifying in the “Permit delays” thread. I avoid it like COVID 19 in any project with a questionable or vague code issue.

Janedrew, the term “Garden Floor” is only used for convenience. As far as the code is concerned, it does not exist. A garden floor could be a basement, first floor, or even cellar, all depending upon the % below grade. In this case, the first floor is a couple of steps up, so it’s clearly a first floor. It’s a full flight of stairs down to the next level, so it’s safe to say that the level is more than 50% below grade, making it a cellar. It’s also noted that way on the C of O in the DOB records for that property. If any property in NYC has a C of O, it can be viewed on the DOB’s property profile.

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 10 months ago

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That Hick Street property is awesome; literally had to bookmark it….one day!

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 10 months ago

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That Hick Street property is awesome; literally had to bookmark it….one day!

hkapstein | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Jim, we appreciate and value your advice as an architect on this forum. For that reason, I sugest that you do not self certify the plans on this project. Why not let the plan examiner take the heat for that interpretation? It sounds a little Scranoesque. Not nearly as bad, but you’re getting into that territory with mezzanines and interpretations etc.

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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I get it now but it seems borderline. If each step is 7″ rise and there are 7 steps. That’s about 4 feet and then there is the mystery 2 steps on the right from the exit so it may be less that 4 feet.

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Jim, can you enlighten us on why the kitchen is not at the garden floor? I am genuinely asking so please explain as I’m not getting it. To me it looks like the living room is in the front and kitchen in back. And that room has more light than a cellar.

See the floor plan for the rental listing from 2020 for the lower unit. It shows the living room and kitchen at the same level. In the living room photo window, you can see the back yard stairs. I’ve attached the same photo here (zoomed in a bit)
https://www.compass.com/listing/34-hicks-street-unit-garden-brooklyn-ny-11201/568038409057234297/

Also previous listings show this property as two units with one being advertised for rent which would explain the need for 2 kitchens.

What’s interesting about the steps is there is a set that comes down from the side to the area way and then from the area way, there is a set that goes up to the yard.
[Screen Shot 2021-06-16 at 8](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:qlBS:screenshot20210616at8.06.01pm.png.jpg)

chemosphere | 3 years and 10 months ago

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looks like a lot of steps, 7 or 8? (my house has a cellar and it’s 5 or 6 steps to the yard) https://www.brownstoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Brooklyn-townhouse-for-sale-Brooklyn-Heights-34-Hicks-06.jpg

jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago

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The main entry, first floor, is just a couple of steps up from the street. It’s a full flight down to the lower level. It’s definitely more than 50% below grade and the C of O does say cellar.

hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 10 months ago

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The floor plan shows the kitchen is at the garden level. A garden level is typically only a few feet below grade. A separate photo shows the stairs from that same floor plan going out to the garden and there’s only a few steps there. I don’t think it’s a cellar kitchen but I didn’t look at the C of O.

jimhillra | 3 years and 10 months ago

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hmmm…… not so fast. The DOB records show an application filed in 2013, signed off in 2014, which converted it from 2 dwelling units to 1, and the resulting C of O indicates the level as a cellar, not a basement. This seems to fall under the earlier discussion of the “Secondary Kitchen for Accessory cooking” in the cellar.

chemosphere | 3 years and 10 months ago

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looks like house is on a hill and the yard is lower than the front. But also look at those stairs up from back of the basement to the yard.

elbo71 | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Based on the article, it sounds like the Hicks street building has two apartments. The garden apartment seems to be at least partly below grade – but hard to tell how much of it is below street level. Either way, seems like they did manage to get approvals to situate the kitchen at this level, which is fantastic news and very heartening for me.

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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https://www.brownstoner.com/sponsored/brooklyn-heights-townhouse-with-lush-garden-breath-taking-interior-spaces-asks-3-15-million/

It looks like kitchen is next to the dining area which means it’s really at grade. What do others think?

Guest User | 3 years and 10 months ago

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Yes agree, it’s hard to get a full picture.