Insulate basment?

Hi Home inspector. Not quite sure I understand what the “vent” is and what a larger one would be? Thanks so much for your comments.

jaay

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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jaay | 2 years and 5 months ago

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I am thinking to insulate my basement ceiling which are open joists right now – w insulation and then drywall – one person has said this is a bad idea since it could trap moisture and create an environment comfortable for termites to breed. I thought it would help to keep the heat in in the garden apt.
Thoughts – to insulate or not to insulate.

ceci | 2 years and 5 months ago

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My garden floor/basement is insulated and finished with drywall for 30 yrs no such issue.If I had to do it again, I would have also soundproofed ceiling.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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If you are worried about moisture, when they insulate, have them put a vapor barrier up before they rerock. They will have to in the kitchen and bath anyway. Or should.

At the start of covid, i almost put foam insulation in to deaden the sound, making it quieter for the person who has since used our dining room as an office. I was also going to use flame retardant insulation.

Steve
Brownstone home inspection llc

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Depends on the situation. First of all, cold air is most likely to becoming from the walls on the garden floor, not from the floor/cellar, particularly from interior wood paneling or exterior masonry that needs repointing (especially if it’s concealed by PermaStone). Unless you have an unusually dry cellar with moisture barriers, it probably is better not to cover the ceiling and beams. Maybe speak to an exterminator if you know one you trust. Also drywall will mold but metal and plaster generally not.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Ok, some mix up on terminology here. Cate is talking about a cellar. Op stated basement but i suspect means a cellar. “Garden” apt is a recent term propagated by real estate agents.

Op, i am not sure there is a lot of advantage to insulating a cellar because they are often warmer and don’t have a lot of air in them. yes they get damp. My basement here is a cellar and the only reason i want to insulate it is because we have an exposed wall in the back and it gets cold. It also stays somewhat dry (i monitor it with a humidity meter).

In so far as termites. I am literally taking the class for the nys dec license now (to complement my home inspection business) and maybe in a month i can speak to that. I can say this, it does not seem to matter where the wood is, if the termites want to eat it, they will eat it. I had to repair a floor on the east end of the island. They had climbed a couple of feet up the foundation to the wood shakes, ate through the cedar shakes and plank sheating and went right into the old finish floor that was under masonite and above the sub floor. Never saw evidence of them from below (cellar) and the homeowner only knew something was wrong when the vinyl finish floor got spongy.

Www.brownstonehomeinspection.com

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Op, in nys, termites breed in the soil, this according something i just read on line. There are termites that breed in wood but the only way they appear is via other wood brought into the home.

That is the quick answer. I do not yet have my study materials from cornell so cannot elaborate any more.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Assuming that you want to insulate because of heat loss on the living floors (i.e. cold floors on the floor immediately above), then I suggest you do 2” rigid XPS board cut to size to fit in between the joists and follow that up with Rockwool R-15 or higher. XPS because it’s easy to install, not nearly permanent like spray foam, and it’s moisture retardant. Rockwool because its much safer to handle than fiberglass bats, provides passive fire protection, and is moisture resistant. This is an easy project that you can do yourself if you really wanted to.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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If the cellar is humid, i would add a vapor barrier. Even if the insulation itself is moisture resistant.

With your concern about moisture and other things, i would get a meter to measure humidity. I keep one in my basement, mostly because i keep wood for work there but even without that, now that i am used to checking it, i will always have one and if see the humidity kicking much over 50% i would turn a dehumidifier on. I try to keep the humidity closer to 40% in my basement. And the concern about termites in humid places is valid. If it is dry, they will not thrive and might leave.

MDR | 2 years and 5 months ago

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“Quick answer” in several parts by HomeInspector/Steve/Doorsby/Tinkerswagon LOL

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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in depth answer from steve in several parts:

Termites and beetles and carpenter ants require the wood to have a moisture content of at least 10% (powder post beetle), 13% (death watch beetle) and carpenter ants and termites are up over 20%. (i only read this yesterday in the cornell pesticide training manual 7c, termite control).

Generally, wood (and people) like a RH of about 50%. If wood is kept at 50% RH that gives it a moisture content of about 10% which keeps it safe from most infestations. that is great for the floor joists in the center of the house but those near the foundation walls will be susceptible to infestation.

steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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FWIW, My basement is moisture prone (+50% RH without a dehumidifier) but controlled with dehumidification. I used XPS board in the ceiling joist cavities with rockwool on top. DOB was in for electrical inspection, asked about the ceiling and blessed that approach “unofficially.” Understand the debate re vapor barriers in basement ceilings, and it definitely couldn’t hurt, but these joist bays are 150 years old and there is airflow from every single direction. Not worried. Particularly since we monitor humidity and dehumidification kicks on above 50% RH.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Twentypercent is really doing this the only way it can be done in a humid situation. First, i have never in my life seen insulated joists above a cellar or crawl space. I do go in a cellar on eastern long island that often has a 1/4″ of water on the floor and the joists are holding a lot of moisture because the homeowner will neither put a sump pump in nor run a dehumidifier.. If one were to insulate in that situation or insulate and put a vapor barrier up, it would probably trap more moisture. We know the insulation will hold it, even if the material itself does not decay from it.

stoopsitter | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Our electrician suggested a relatively simple fix to dehumidify a brownstone cellar. If you have old hatches front and rear, install a fan in each door. On low humidity days, turn on the fans to pull dry air through the space and expel it at the other end. This doesn’t help when the weather is humid for an extended period but it’s way less expensive than constantly running a dehumidifier.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Agree with HomeInspector. Also adding that I would never frame the ceiling with Sheetrock. Even with the measures I’ve taken, we plan on doing regular inspections to ensure moisture isn’t getting trapped along the joists. The last thing we want to do is promote wood rot, mild, etc, when attempting to solve a completely different issue.

Stoopsitter, your electrician’s solution requires way too much effort and thought. Modern dehumidifiers have excellent moisture sensors — some can even take readings from external sensors, and turn on and off as-needed. They really don’t cost all that much to run at the end of the day.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 2 years and 5 months ago

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Couldn’t vent fans be connected to a moisture sensor?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Stoopsitter: this is what a frugal relation of mine does on li. Its ok for him as a retiree with nothing to think about but the sheckels he is saving by not purchasing nor running a dehumidifier. Most people here in the city are too busy with life and kids and don’t want to think about the cellar until they have to.

Bob, that might be risky. Measure it both inside and outside and have it set to operate when the humidity on the inside is higher than the humidty on the outside?

I would rather buy a dehumidifier. Have it drain into a sump and when it fills up a pump lifts it out.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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My dehumidifier drains directly into my waste water drain right below my washer. If there were a sewer backup could spell disaster if left unattended but works for now.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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And there is nothing wrong with draining one into a slop sink. I think the people who do the sump pump have other water issues.

jaay | 2 years and 5 months ago

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I don’t have issues w water in the basement (although I did install a sump pump after the flooding two years ago).
my issue is insulating the garden level floor to keep heat in – that’s why I’m thinking to put insulation in the basement ceiling and then green board – someone suggested that might cause water to be trapped in the ceiling joists – but maybe with a relatively dry basement I shouldn’t worry about that – and should insulate to prevent heat loss in the garden level.