Insulate basment?

I am thinking to insulate my basement ceiling which are open joists right now – w insulation and then drywall – one person has said this is a bad idea since it could trap moisture and create an environment comfortable for termites to breed. I thought it would help to keep the heat in in the garden apt.
Thoughts – to insulate or not to insulate.

jaay

in General Discussion 2 years and 5 months ago

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jaay | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Hi Home inspector. Not quite sure I understand what the “vent” is and what a larger one would be? Thanks so much for your comments.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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I am asking because if you have steam, you can put a larger vent size on a steam radiator. It will allow cool air to void faster, getting hot steam in sooner, before the thermostat tells the boiler to stop firing. This would work for rooms NOT located where a thermostat is.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Vic, what kind of heat do you have? Steam or water?

jaay | 2 years and 5 months ago

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So really searching for ways to insulate the garden level – I’ve got a thermostat on every floor. It’s a one zone system – I’m using an ecobee that is supposed to balance out all of the running thermostats. I set the system to 70 – Typically The top floor is 70 – parlor level 71 and garden level 67. Of course heat rises – but how do I make sure the garden level is up to at least 70 – which although 2 deg above city requirements – is still pretty chilly in winter months. I can pump up the heat – but wonder what sort of insulation I can do on the garden level – maybe I should add another radiator? Raising to 72 – but garden still seems to stay at 68. Trying to figure out what to do.

Thanks – really do appreciate the discussion.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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On the contrary. I have a full size poorly insulated 1960’s metal garage door which has openings around it (1/8″gaps) and crap joulesy windows in front. Most cellars i have been in in brooklyn are sealed much better and are much warmer, even in winter (i am thinking of full below grade cellars, no windows). Some cellars that have those steel hatches out front have the issues i have with mine. Mine gets so cold i have to put electric heaters on to use adhesives.

By what you are saying, i should insulate mine. For people who might not have drafty cellars or cellars that stay around 60 degrees all year i question the benefit.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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HomeInspector, Generally agree but I think your cellar is, perhaps, better sealed than mine and many of my neighbors. Our issue was cold floors on the level above + heat loss on that level because the cold floors acted like a heat sink. I can attest that insulation between the joists made an undisputed and measurable difference in floor temp above. Hydronic heating on the floor boards would have been amazing but out of budget. Heating the basement would require near-continuous heating of a mostly non-occupied space and would be an irresponsible use of energy.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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You know. Insulation is only good at keeping heat in heated spaces. I am beginning to question how much heat would actually leave through a floor into a cellar and how much cold would come into the garden level from a reletively sealed cellar below.

I do find this in my own home: my shop is in my cellar which can at times get cold because it has a garage door opening to the back. When it is cold out and i am working on projects requiring a minimum of say 55 degrees, i put a heater on in the cellar. This really changes the heating situation on our first floor and that heat warms the floor above. I am leaning toward putting a radiator on a hot water loop in my cellar.

In so far as the insulation in the floor joists above a cellar. I see a lot of finished ceilings here in the city where water is not an issue and see what i say about reletive humidity above. If it stays at 50% or below, you should be good. Out on the east end of li, where my fami ly is from, i know a lot of people who have high humidity and outright water issues for many months out of the year and none of these people have insulated the joists above the cellar.

jaay | 2 years and 5 months ago

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I don’t have issues w water in the basement (although I did install a sump pump after the flooding two years ago).
my issue is insulating the garden level floor to keep heat in – that’s why I’m thinking to put insulation in the basement ceiling and then green board – someone suggested that might cause water to be trapped in the ceiling joists – but maybe with a relatively dry basement I shouldn’t worry about that – and should insulate to prevent heat loss in the garden level.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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And there is nothing wrong with draining one into a slop sink. I think the people who do the sump pump have other water issues.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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My dehumidifier drains directly into my waste water drain right below my washer. If there were a sewer backup could spell disaster if left unattended but works for now.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Stoopsitter: this is what a frugal relation of mine does on li. Its ok for him as a retiree with nothing to think about but the sheckels he is saving by not purchasing nor running a dehumidifier. Most people here in the city are too busy with life and kids and don’t want to think about the cellar until they have to.

Bob, that might be risky. Measure it both inside and outside and have it set to operate when the humidity on the inside is higher than the humidty on the outside?

I would rather buy a dehumidifier. Have it drain into a sump and when it fills up a pump lifts it out.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 2 years and 5 months ago

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Couldn’t vent fans be connected to a moisture sensor?

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Agree with HomeInspector. Also adding that I would never frame the ceiling with Sheetrock. Even with the measures I’ve taken, we plan on doing regular inspections to ensure moisture isn’t getting trapped along the joists. The last thing we want to do is promote wood rot, mild, etc, when attempting to solve a completely different issue.

Stoopsitter, your electrician’s solution requires way too much effort and thought. Modern dehumidifiers have excellent moisture sensors — some can even take readings from external sensors, and turn on and off as-needed. They really don’t cost all that much to run at the end of the day.

stoopsitter | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Our electrician suggested a relatively simple fix to dehumidify a brownstone cellar. If you have old hatches front and rear, install a fan in each door. On low humidity days, turn on the fans to pull dry air through the space and expel it at the other end. This doesn’t help when the weather is humid for an extended period but it’s way less expensive than constantly running a dehumidifier.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Twentypercent is really doing this the only way it can be done in a humid situation. First, i have never in my life seen insulated joists above a cellar or crawl space. I do go in a cellar on eastern long island that often has a 1/4″ of water on the floor and the joists are holding a lot of moisture because the homeowner will neither put a sump pump in nor run a dehumidifier.. If one were to insulate in that situation or insulate and put a vapor barrier up, it would probably trap more moisture. We know the insulation will hold it, even if the material itself does not decay from it.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 5 months ago

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FWIW, My basement is moisture prone (+50% RH without a dehumidifier) but controlled with dehumidification. I used XPS board in the ceiling joist cavities with rockwool on top. DOB was in for electrical inspection, asked about the ceiling and blessed that approach “unofficially.” Understand the debate re vapor barriers in basement ceilings, and it definitely couldn’t hurt, but these joist bays are 150 years old and there is airflow from every single direction. Not worried. Particularly since we monitor humidity and dehumidification kicks on above 50% RH.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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in depth answer from steve in several parts:

Termites and beetles and carpenter ants require the wood to have a moisture content of at least 10% (powder post beetle), 13% (death watch beetle) and carpenter ants and termites are up over 20%. (i only read this yesterday in the cornell pesticide training manual 7c, termite control).

Generally, wood (and people) like a RH of about 50%. If wood is kept at 50% RH that gives it a moisture content of about 10% which keeps it safe from most infestations. that is great for the floor joists in the center of the house but those near the foundation walls will be susceptible to infestation.

steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com

MDR | 2 years and 5 months ago

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“Quick answer” in several parts by HomeInspector/Steve/Doorsby/Tinkerswagon LOL

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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If the cellar is humid, i would add a vapor barrier. Even if the insulation itself is moisture resistant.

With your concern about moisture and other things, i would get a meter to measure humidity. I keep one in my basement, mostly because i keep wood for work there but even without that, now that i am used to checking it, i will always have one and if see the humidity kicking much over 50% i would turn a dehumidifier on. I try to keep the humidity closer to 40% in my basement. And the concern about termites in humid places is valid. If it is dry, they will not thrive and might leave.