Former Owners Accountability
Now that is brilliant. You might have something there.
cate
in General Discussion 6 years and 9 months ago
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brooklyn718
in General Discussion 6 years and 10 months ago
I purchased a 2 family home. The posting and the former owners listed it as a 9 bedroom. Fast forward 2 years and we had issues with the DOB saying that three of our bedrooms are illegal and now we can’t use the bedrooms we originally thought we had. The bank even appraised our home as a 9 bedroom. My question– can I sue the former owners for the price difference in what is supposed to be rather than what we paid based on false information?
EJR | 6 years and 10 months ago
The answer to your question can only be correctly answer after review of your purchase agreement. My guess is that except for specifically enumerated issues, the house was sold as-is with no continuing liability to the Seller. Perhaps if you can prove fraud you would have some recourse, but my guess is that the Seller was representing the home in the manner in which they used it, particularly since your bank appraised it as such and you would not be able to establish fraud, which is a high bar to clear. Your home inspector should have uncovered the issues leading to the “illegal” nature of these bedrooms assuming they were identified without opening walls, etc. My guess is that these rooms either (i) are below grade, (ii) lack closets or (iii) lack windows/egress, or some combination thereof. Whether or not they are “legal” bedrooms also does not mean that you personally cannot use them as such, it just means that you cannot rent them out.
Guest User | 6 years and 10 months ago
The answer to “can i sue” is always yes. The question of whether it’s in your best interest is a whole different ball of wax. Whether the seller knowingly misrepresented the usability of the 3 bedrooms would be challenging to prove, especially with the bank assessment and presumably a home inspection not identifying any issues. i’m guessing the litigation might cost you more in the long run than what you would hope to gain from the lawsuit.
slopefarm | 6 years and 10 months ago
Did you have the home inspected before you purchased? Hard to see how you have a claim against the seller. The types of things that make a bedroom not legally a bedroom should be evident to someone knowledgeable.
empathie00 | 6 years and 10 months ago
We had something of a similar issue – consulted an attorney who basically said it was our responsibility (along with the inspector, title co and our RE lawyer) to verify everything was up to snuff and therefore our fault we didn’t uncover the issues before purchase – so nothing could be done except, possibly to sue our RE lawyer. I contacted the RE lawyer re: the issue just to see what he’d say and his response was, I kid not: “I dare you to sue me.” I also have a friend in a much worse position who ended up spending 100k+ to rectify a C/O issue that wasn’t uncovered during their purchase process, they also had no recourse. Buyer beware… which is so tough to hear *after you’ve bought. 🙁 Sorry. 🙁
mozeeatupu | 6 years and 10 months ago
Your house, your responsibility
slopefarm | 6 years and 10 months ago
Well, the professionals you hire to make sure of these things before you close have a professional responsibility to you to do their jobs properly. that said, a malpractice claim is very difficult to make out in this area.
randolph | 6 years and 10 months ago
> @Lucia Figueras
> now we can’t use the bedrooms we originally thought we had
how did the DOB even get involved? why can’t you use the bedrooms? how are the rooms illegal in a way that is not obvious ie no windows or super low ceiling? something about this does not pass the smell test.
greenworks | 6 years and 10 months ago
To agree with but also jump off on what slopefarm and mozeeatupu said:
Yes you should rely on professionals to make sure of those things but – BUT – no one cares more about your closing than you do, no matter how much you pay someone. In the end, it will still be a headache if there’s a problem.
If I hadn’t had a somewhat active role in learning my rights and responsibilities — and asserting those rights — throughout the closing process (on both the sale and purchase end) for the last couple of closings I’ve been through, those closings would have gone incredibly bad (and a sale even fallen through).
Your attorney can (and will) be so busy they mix some details up. Your inspector can (and will) think that something is not an issue that actually is, and alert you to something that he says is a problem but actually isn’t. That of course does not relieve them of their professional responsibilities but you can’t take a back seat in the closing process.
I held no particular expertise in this and was pretty much a noob before my last couple of closings. But I learned you HAVE to check everything out, be assertive yet polite, and confirm every representation a seller/purchaser makes. Google can be your friend if read with a critical eye and yes, depend on the wise minds of this forum.
In the end, no one cares as much about this than you.
vivian | 6 years and 10 months ago
I also bought a house and then found out that two of the bedrooms aren’t legal. Neither my bank nor my appraiser caught it. They are considered ‘attic’ because their ceiling height is slightly lower than today’s code. However, we still use them as bedrooms, and if I sell I would just draw them as rooms and let the new owner decide/figure it out!
Guest User | 6 years and 10 months ago
If I bought the “9” bedroom house and found out some of the bedrooms weren’t legal I’d pay a handyman to make the rooms legal. I believe to become legal bedroom they are required to have light, ventilation and a way out in case of fire so have a handyman install a window and a light and it should be ok (double check to make sure nothing else is needed) and enjoy your 9 bedroom as you had intended.
melissa_rousset | 6 years and 10 months ago
This is a problem confronting new Brooklyn buyers who expect the usual rules to apply in matters of real estate. They don’t! These buildings date back (often) 150 years or more, when architectural drawings were basically ‘build here’. Throw in years of corrupt and slipshod oversight buy DOB, centuries of neglect followed by an overheated real estate market and you have situations like this. ANyone buying in Brooklyn needs to be savvy about this–additions , decks, you name it. All that stuff was OFTEN built without approval. I do blame the professional helpers who should know better–real estate agents and what not but they just want the deal to close. This can also work in your favor in some cases. I have never heard of the DOB just showing up and demanding to be let in. If they do, say you’re a guest and can’t do that. Trying to sue after the fact would be a total waste of time…
Guest User | 6 years and 10 months ago
some of these things can’t be fixed by a handyman, including installing a window. i would not hire a “handyman” to cut a hole in my wall and create a structurally adequate surround for a new window. definition of a legal bedroom:
-Have a minimum of 80 square feet and no dimension measuring less than 8 feet. If the apartment contains three or more bedrooms, half of the bedrooms may have a minimum dimension of 7 feet.
-Have a minimum ceiling height of 8 feet. If the bedroom is in a basement, it must have a ceiling height of at least 7 feet. If there’s a sloped ceiling over all or part of the room, there must be a clear ceiling height of at least 7 feet over at least two-thirds of the room.
-Have at least one window that opens to a street, yard, garden or court on the same lot. In some zoning districts, skylights may be substituted for windows.
-Have two means of egress; whether egress is via window or a door, it must be operable from the inside without the use of keys, tools or special skills.
-Cannot serve as a passage to another room.
cate | 6 years and 10 months ago
If the “bedrooms” are in a cellar they will never be legal, it doesn’t matter if you create windows.
helen40
in General Discussion 6 years and 10 months ago
@MaggieO Thanks for that. An earlier post mentioned “closet” as a requirement for a bedroom. Its nice to have, but I have never heard it as a requirement.
The OP really needs to let us know why DOB says the bedrooms are “illegal.” You may not rent them as bedrooms, and usually its not a good idea to list what’s not a bedroom as a bedroom in a sales listing (that why one often sees “storage” or “office” in spaces that will clearly be used for sleeping. Unless both units are an investment property, I don’t know why you can’t use the bedrooms” for whatever you want.
randolph | 6 years and 10 months ago
> @cate
> If the “bedrooms” are in a cellar they will never be legal,
not true if you were to dig down the cellar and created enough ceiling height and large enough windows? i mean with enough $$$$$$ almost anything is possible.
albertw | 6 years and 10 months ago
Not bedrooms in cellars, I’m afraid.
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 6 years and 10 months ago
AFAIK digging down cannot make a cellar into a basement, no matter how much the ceiling height is increased.
alterboy | 6 years and 10 months ago
Lucia: you are in a tough spot, having paid good money for something that is not what you though you were buying. To make matters worse, people you relied on to make the purchase possible — supposed professionals — let you down. Some posters here are accurate in saying that, in general, no handyman can make a bedroom legal and no amount of digging down will make a cellar “bedroom” legal either. Some people who post have no better information than the “professionals” you relied on originally. The possible problems with your non-bedrooms are: lack of light and air, windows along the lot line, dimensions too small to qualify as a bedroom or perhaps rooms under a sloped roof or in a cellar. A qualified architect or engineer can tell you rather quickly whether any of the issues can be easily fixed. A lawsuit will be costly and take an enormous amount of time and effort. At this point it may not be worthwhile. I would see what a licensed architect or engineer has to say first if for no other reason than, if you were to proceed with a lawsuit, the lawyer would need the expertise of an architect or engineer to proceed anyway. Best of luck to you and yours.