Combining Floors - Legal 3 family to 2 family conversion?
@jimhillra – wow. this is annoying. The building was originally a 2 family before being renovated ~15 years ago, when the C of O was amended to 3 family.
Really hoping this doesn’t turn into a big fiasco trying to combine apartments legally
alexkavourias
in General Discussion 2 weeks ago
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alexkavourias | 1 month ago
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Im in contract to buy a 3 family townhouse.
– garden, parlor and top floors are separate apartments
– the parlor and top floor share an outdoor entrance. They are connected by a foyer + internal staircase
I want to take the top two apartments as my own for owners use. I’d like to remove the extra kitchen and cap the gas & plumbinh.
To legally do this work, am I looking at an ALT-2 filing at the minimum?
cate | 1 month ago
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AFAIK, as long as the house remains a legal three family and you don’t change egress, you don’t need to file an Alt-1, and as long as you don’t move wet rooms, you don’t need to file an Alt-2. Simply capping fixtures should not require an Alt-2. Also FWIW sometimes a kitchen can be turned into a lovely craft/laundry room with no significant changes.
alexkavourias | 1 month ago
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Yes! would love to convert it into a laundry room and/or add an extra bathroom on the top floor.
So, I would only need to get standard kitchen renovation permits from DOB for this type of work?
cate | 1 month ago
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AFIK no DOB permit (such as an Alt-1 or Alt-2) is required to cap fixtures. The licensed plumber will submit whatever permit with the DOB is needed to do the work, just like they would do if they were replacing an old boiler with a new one. This is not the same as a permit an architect or engineer files for a change of occupancy or alteration such as moving walls. It will not increase your property tax. However, converting a kitchen into a bathroom can often require an Alt-2 filed by an architect or engineer, depending on the design. In any case, you would be well advised to work with an architect on all of this, unless you are going the very minimal route and merely capping fixtures. If you are doing more than the bare bones minimum, an experienced architect will make the whole project more successful and also how to design the changes so no DOB permits are required, if that is your preference.
alexkavourias | 1 month ago
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Thank you Cate, this is incredibly valuable advice
Brownstone Home Inspection | 1 month ago
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so with due credit to (i think) Chris at Petri Plumbing who answered this a month ago:
you cannot simply cap a gas line and leave it that way. a gas line must terminate at an appliance.
cate | 1 month ago
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Maybe rules have changed but many houses in Brooklyn do have many gas lines that are capped with no fixtures whether for lighting or stoves.
amt230 | 1 month ago
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For whatever it is worth, I converted my 4 family for use as a 3 family and only considered permits to the extent that they were otherwise required based on the substantive work. But, I was told by all the people guiding me at the time that the underutilization in and of itself does not create a problem with your COO and that no permits were required for that wrinkle. We otherwise navigated the project to be permit light, so my home remains technically a 4 family though I use as 3, and nothing was filed to accomplish this.
bobjbkln | 1 month ago
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On the other hand, a three family house is considered a multiple dwelling and is subject to significantly more requirements and inspections than a 2 family. If you can spend the additional money, time, and permit processing, it might be worthwhile in the end to change the C of O.
cate | 1 month ago
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That’s very true that there are many more requirements and inspections for a three-family house than a single-family. However, changing the C of O will one year later reset the property tax to the full current market value of the house all at once.
BobMarvin | 1 month ago
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Wow Cate. If RE taxes increase that much is it EVER practicable to change one’s C of O?
amt230 | 1 month ago
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As it was explained to me, it’s only worth changing the COO if you need to add occupancy (since overutilization is a big problem).
Aside from the LL152 gas inspection, what are the additional requirements and inspections for a multi family, as it would seem in a few years behind then!
alexkavourias | 0 months ago
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Does anyone know what it would take to remove the fire escape from a 3 family building? Does that require bringing the whole building up to modern fire codes (sprinklers etc)
I plan to live in the top two floors with a ground floor tenant, but i imagine that doesn’t matter since it’s still a legal 3 family and the fire escape is required as egress?
cate | 0 months ago
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AFAIK removing the fire escape will trigger the sprinkler requirement. Your best bet is to consult with a code expert such as an expediter who specializes in code. (BTW, changing the CofO from three to two may also trigger the sprinkler requirement.)
pmody | 0 months ago
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FWIW this is the technical document which allows for combining apartments without changing COO. We are going through it now for our building.
pmody | 4 weeks ago
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This may be helpful as well.
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/code_notes_combining_apt.pdf
alexkavourias | 4 weeks ago
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Thanks pmody. Are you going through the process of submitting an ALT-2 right now? Any issues you’ve run into?
michaelhanson | 4 weeks ago
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Hi, I’m just seeing this – it’s a common issue I’ve tackled more than a few times – as pmody points out, a licensed architect (or engineer) can file the work as an Alt-2 under TPP3/97, keeping things more simple and not requiring a change to (or creation of) the C of O, avoiding a lot of red tape and triggers. It’s actually pretty straightforward, though it may require multiple filings (Gen Constr & Plumbing, most likely).
Assuming you’re doing more than just removing a kitchen, you can also take the opportunity to adjust the layout as needed – your best bet is to find a basic team – an architect and expediter, and maybe an MEP engineer if needed. With everything filed, you can avoid the exposure to working without a permit, and you get more definitive drawings for the GC to work from (tightening up prices and reducing Change Orders). It can also help down the road, should you want to sell at some point.
I’d also suggest just keeping the fire escape if you can – trying to get rid of it may push you into filing an Alt-1, or to adjust (get) a C of O to reflect the egress change.
jimhillra | 3 weeks ago
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I’m going to respectfully disagree with some of the statements here. TPPN 3/97 allows for the combination of units in a multiple dwelling, but ONLY if it remains a multiple dwelling. Reducing the number of families from 3 to 2 changes the occupancy class to a one- or two-family dwelling, subject to different codes, so it would require a C of O change.
That change of use can also trigger sprinklers throughout the entire building. Keeping the fire escape might allow you to avoid the sprinklers, but it could take some work to convince the DOB of that. Removing the fire escape would definitely trigger sprinklers.
Another exception for the sprinklers is if you can prove that the original use of the house was a one- or two-family, and you’re returning it to its original use.