Air to Water Heat Pump with Radiators
This comes from the Viessmann website. Viessmann is a UK manufacturer of air to water heat pumps:
“If the outdoor temperature drops too low for your heat pump to produce any heat, a backup may be required. This is unlikely to occur in the UK, however, heat pumps in countries such as Canada may need to rely on a backup. This can become expensive, so if you live in an extremely cold climate, a heat pump may not be the most efficient way to heat your home.”
The efficiency of these systems declines until they get to a point that they do not work. that point appears to be about 15 degrees Fahrenheit (according to the Viessmann website). “back up” on these is probably an electric coil.
they seem to be higher tech versions of the heat pumps i experienced in North Carolina in the 1980’s. Those stopped working at about freezing and an electric coil came on. I just checked, an on-line source said some of ours can work down to 25 degrees F.
justinromeu26
in General Discussion 2 years and 4 months ago
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gururoofing | 2 years and 4 months ago
We’re thinking of getting mini splits installed to replace our heating system and add cooling, but our first estimate was higher than I expected.
Does anyone have any experience with air to water heat pumps with radiators or an electric boiler? We’d like to get off gas, but I want to make sure we get something long lasting for this investment and I’m worried mini splits aren’t it. I’m wondering if we can just keep using our radiators for heat and get a small cooling solution for upstairs.
Thanks
Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago
Current air to water heat pumps available in the US are not capable of high enough temperatures to support traditional hot water radiator heating. There are a few Canadian companies that make units that might work, but are fairly pricey. The hope is that the units available in Europe and being developed in Scandinavia will become available here in the next few years
Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago
Forget the electric boiler option… you would need an upgrade to your electric service to power an equivalent to your gas fired boiler and it would be cost prohibitive to run…
gururoofing | 2 years and 4 months ago
Thanks for the advice. We have solar panels and 100 amp service, so didn’t know if that changed anything.
If it were you, would you hold out for the European air to water heat pumps? Our boiler is in fine working order, it’s just 40-50 years old I think.
gururoofing | 2 years and 4 months ago
Sorry, I meant 200 amps
Master Plvmber | 2 years and 4 months ago
Part of the reason NYC is trying to get off gas is because people in this country keep boilers operating for 40-50 years instead of replacing them with advanced units that use less fuel and operate with greater safety. European codes don’t put up with that.
Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago
Regarding the electric service… a 150000 btu electric boiler capable of producing 180degree water , which is about the size of a standard gas boiler in a brownstone (electro industries EB-CX-44) has a power draw of 183amps… not too practical. Daikin and Samsung make two stage high temperature heat pump boilers in Europe … Vattenfall is supposed to release a plug and play unit soon
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago
master plumber: europeans don’t heat with old equipment because all of their stuff breaks after 8 years. you ever own a british car? didn’t think so. there is a reason you never did.
JohnHancock | 2 years and 4 months ago
Hahahahaha, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Range or Land Rover, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Masserati….same for the European energy equipment. Absolutely nobody has a tank with boiling water in the basement….central heating with radiators that can be controlled separately in each room with…a 2 pipe system was standard everywhere many decades ago, many. You will not find oil tanks and unbalanced steam systems even in 16th century merchant houses in the old part of town. OMG light years ahead.
Had a good laugh here 😉
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago
The people who i know in this country who are using 50 year old oil burners are not driving those cars and the people i know in europe who use everyday appliances are not driving those cars either. The real world for most people is not rolls royce, audi, masseratti. Not sure about their heating equipment but i can say this about their appliances – its not all bosch and miele and no, their everyday stuff does not last as long as our crappy old inefficient iron junk over here.
The last time i was in europe, the house i stayed in had no central heating, two coal fire places for heat, and a back burner for domestic hot water. If we know what a back burner is. I’d say i enjoyed staying in that house with those people a lot more than i would enjoy staying with the guy who drives the masseratti or whatever.
I’d be twisted if i said i had a laugh writing this –
I will agree that something has held us back in this country but i am not certain that the mass of people can or know how to change it. I am not sure any of us understand the problem.
JohnHancock | 2 years and 4 months ago
Hahaha, trust me….I know, I’m European. Light years!
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago
I will get to this after i get a cup of tea.
cate | 2 years and 4 months ago
FamilyHouse, many people in NYC who already have a working radiator system install mini-splits for cooling and continue to use their radiators for heat.
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago
so as i waited 15 minutes for my crappy 120 volt american designed kettle to heat a pot of water (only some people will get this) i had plenty of time to think.
My comparison was really between 50 year old american boilers and 50 year old british cars. i meant those made by the now defunct British Leyland. There is a reason why British Leyland is defunct and why you don’t see people using those cars the way some older american gas guzzlers are still on the road. it was not about whether the technology is better. you know this, if you talk to older Europeans, they used to think american products were the best. there was a time when they lasted longer and that was when we made big, old inefficient things. we were not thinking about the true cost.
European technology may be better for luxury products (and some things heavily regulated like the size of car engines and heating systems). i use German festool products. They are the best – they last long and the technology is light years ahead (i tell people they are a game changer). But not everyone is usi ng luxury products – here or in Europe. Go in their houses over there and they use Dewalt just like we do. Some of the appliances i have seen look cheaply made. i first traveled to the UK in 1989, i used to think that everyone drove a jaguar and back then, jaguar had a lot of problems.
I have never really talked to people in Europe about their heating systems. Most of the people i know there are not into talking about this stuff the same way some of my friends would or people on this board might (my neighbor installed his own mini split system and told me all about it and over a six pack one day; i do not run into this kind of interest in this stuff in europe). so i am at a disadvantage when trying to make a comparison. I do trust you that the technology is better (i know it is, i am reading this stuff eman and others post because we all have to make a change here).
Part of the problem for us may be that our old cast iron heating systems do last longer. They become environmental anchors around our necks. my neighbors have a boiler in their house made in the 1940’s. My boiler dates to 1989. Europeans now have an advantage because some of them might not have thought of installing central heat until the advent of this newer, smaller equipment that can be tucked in the closet under the stairs of an older, smaller home. we have our crappy old stuff in our basement, it runs and it is paid for so why not keep using it? i know that mindset is bad from an environmental standpoint but for some, like my 80 year old neighbor, it is an economic reality; she is timing the demise of her boiler to something else. perhaps if this old stuff only lasted 15 years we would all be running out buying the newest and best and the manufacturers would respond by improving the technology.
gururoofing | 2 years and 4 months ago
Thanks for the information everyone.
Master Plvmber | 2 years and 4 months ago
It should also be said that many municipalities in Europe homes and boilers are subjected to an annual boiler inspection by a city inspector. If the boiler has a drop in efficiency or shows it’s producing more carbon monoxide than typical, the boiler is tagged and the owners are given a very short window to have it fixed. If when the inspector returns, there isn’t a new boiler in place or the condition isn’t rectified with the old boiler, the gas is locked off. We have an odd way of not dealing with this in this country and we make even odder statements like “My boiler’s 50 years old but it works great.” as if we’d even know or have a standard by which to judge such things.
gururoofing | 2 years and 4 months ago
That’s a good point. In California, cars get a smog check and you need to prove it’s been done. I never thought of residential heating equipment the same way.
colonialrevival | 2 years and 4 months ago
A major reason that Europeans lack the perceived enthusiasm toward home systems is not because their stuff is actually garbage.
Many “exciting” things that are nascent and novel here in the United States, like mini split heat pumps, are ubiquitous in continental Europe and have been for some time. Why would someone be particularly excited about the extremely energy efficient climate cooling system that their entire neighborhood has?
justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago
If that is in response to what i said: I did not call anything of theirs garbage (the british leyland cars, yes). Their stuff tends to be “light weight” . The cars for instance. Just because it does not last long does not mean it is garbage and does not do what it is supposed to do but it does it more efficiently – because it is lighter. But because it is lighter it fails sooner. We do see that here with modern a/c units and heat pumps, they fail at 15-20 years. We had an old Chrysler water cooled ac unit in a building i worked in in the late 1990’s and that had been installed in 1955. Heavy, old inefficient but it runs – or ran for a long time.
I think i called our stuff junk because it is old and heavy and inefficient.
I suspect one reason it is easier to make advacements in technology is because of the faster life cycle. If you count on things failing and consumers replacing, it is easier to invest in improvements and sell them to consumers.
In so far as interest in mechanical things and systems, i just don’t see the interest there in gen eral. Here every kid grew up working on a car and every garage has at least a tool box in it. Over there, i see far fewer tools and far less conversation about fixing things. I was even talking to the owner of an hvac installation firm from dublin last fall and i asked if they did a lot of service and he said no because they cannot find people with the skillset. Its not just that the people lack the skillset; they lack the interest. This stuff starts when you are young, usually as you watch dad. If dad’s not doing it, the children won’t.
You feel it in their towns. Hardware stores are fewer and farther between, i never see auto parts stores around, and they don’t have home centers. Never see an electric supply. Go to a pub and the men don’t talk about fixing things. No one gripes about the problems they are having with something mechanical. And you don’t see handyman magazine lying on the coffee table or fine home building. Different culture.
On the other hand, i understand what you mean. I lived down south here and we had heat pumps which had probably been around for a while at that point and no one talked about them like we talk about our steam heating systems here. All they wanted to do was set the thermostat and let it do its job. The most exciting thing about the heat pump where i lived was the sound of the chameleons getting chopped up by the fan blades.