Exterior window caulk
Dibs, the caulking job you showed us is what homeowners do. Don’t get me wrong, i do that on my own house and if I did it on someone else’s house, it might be a $100 per window caulking job – but it is not done correctly. The big fear i have is that if you, who has really studied this stuff (maybe not the fine points of things – listen, i am a finish person, so i have to be worried about how it looks), does not realize what a $200 per window caulking job looks like, how can we expect others? it looks like you applied too much at one side and ran your finger through it on the other. am i correct?
I explained something here yesterday about how it is very important to understand the history of how we got here today and why i sometimes write so much. so let me explain:
The people who taught me to caulk used solid metal tubular caulking guns that looked sort of like grease guns with a lever handle like the modern things have. These guns came with five metal nozzles that were of different shapes and sizes. in the 1970’s there were old guys using these things a nd they chose the nozzle for the job by size and shape. they held that gun against the seam to be caulked and pressed firmly to be sure the caulk did not run out the sides but instead was force into the seam. they also watched to be sure caulk did not begin to run ahead of the job too much; if it did, too much pressure was being applied or they were moving the gun too slow; there is a “knack” to applying it. There was no running your finger back over it unless someone applied too much pressure. and none of these guys had plastic applicators that i see in the stores.
By 1980, most of the old caulking guns were hanging in garages as remnants of the past and all of us were using modern caulking with the plastic nozzle. Let’s talk about that nozzle: a pro begins with his narrowest seams and cuts that nozzle to width and applies the caulk under pressure, creating a uniform bead that is generally flat on top. if it is round, he did not press down on the applicator enough. Only when moving to the wider seams, does he cut the tube back further. in 1970’s and early ’80’s my boss would spend an afternoon caulking windows (and it was a while before he let me to them and when he did, only the ones less visible) and while he sometimes ran his finger through a spot he had trouble with, there was no such thing as a plastic applicator.
and by the way, it is not possible to achieve this kind of job against masonry.
The man who paid 200 per window should have been able to demand the kind of job i am describing above. unfortunately, we are too used to allowing people who know nothing about what they are doing and do not care to take the time to learn to dictate to us what a proper job is. back in the day, a true trades person told the customer what had to be and delivered; theses people still exist, their numbers have dwindled, but we can still find them. it is up to us to do so.
sorry to have used your caulking job as an example DIBS and i do that kind of work on my own home as well, but people should not be paying for it.
stevecym
in Exteriors 5 years and 10 months ago
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42 replies
donaldmerse | 5 years and 10 months ago
Here’s the line item on the contract….
donaldmerse | 5 years and 10 months ago
[FE4C8968-A8B2-4893-A55F-11493060065B](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:D0rF:fe4c8968a8b24893a55f11493060065b.jpeg.jpg)
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
he went over a piece that is going to fall out. that is your proof. looking at the caulk on the masonry is no measure as it is always hard to do and look neat. but show another photo of metal to metal and i will look at the bead and tell you about his workmanship. still, i see a void on the last photo and that is grounds to tell him he does not know what he is doing.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
the line is perfectly clear.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
his price was clear: 200 per=professional job. this is what confuses people. the pricing. some people are happy to pay 100 and get crap and they deserve that, but this guy figured out how to charge more and deliver crap and this is wrong.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
i am 55 years old and have been caulking stuff since like 1979 or something and i would be struggling with getting that job right all week and trying to figure out why i cannot make any money and you would be complaining about how slow i am.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
the reason it is better for a homeowner to learn to do this is, it is hard to write a contract for something like this as it probably was not necessary to rip all that out and some may not come out. if it were me on my house, i would remove the loose stuff and caulk. but to allow a contractor the right to determine what stays and goes is tricky and even though he left what is good, the contract says remove and he should have done that.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
i have come on here and complained about “tradesmen” and workmanship and pricing. now, had he charged you 100 per and given you a crappy job, it makes it hard for someone else who believes in doing it right at all costs to come along and charge 200. some people, in hindsight, realize that a 100 dollar job was a 100 dollar job and they let it go, but this should not have happen.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
i know his type. if you did not pay him and you show him why you are not, he is going to go crazy. i would love to be a fly on the wall watching this-
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
fyi: caulking should not have a rounded edge on it when you remove the applicator. the applicator should be cut to the size needed for the width of the job and should be held firm against the caulk as it come out of the tube; this has the effect of spreading the caulk and: 1. making it look nice and uniform which is secondary to 2. spreading it to all reaches of the area to be caulked and pressing it firmly into and against both side of the void.
even if you are less experienced, using your finger is an acceptable alternative. in some spots they were so measly with the application of the product that i am wondering if they were concerned with how much material they were using. if we went on a job like this when i was a kid, my boss would have arrived with a case of caulk, at least.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
and just so you all know, when we were learning how to do stuff years ago, the bosses were not always easy. if i tried to pass some of what is shown in these photos off to my boss in 1980, he would have told me he was going to “throw a hammer at me” (if i tried to pass that off after he had trained me). that is how we learned, with someone saying that to us. there was no going home to mommy and daddy telling them the boss yelled at you or threatened you (and i lived at home with two parents, i was not forced to go out and work). can you imagine that today? i have a 14 year old son and my guess is if he came in in a year or so and said “my boss threatened to throw a hammer at me” my wife would probably say to him, “that’s it, you are not working for him anymore”. this is the truth.
the thing about learning like that is, unless you wanted a hammer flying by your head, you did not make those mistakes again.
donaldmerse | 5 years and 10 months ago
He collected the check the same day the work was done.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
he did not meet the terms of the contract. you have recourse.
Lurker | 5 years and 10 months ago
Hey stevecym–you have lots of great things to say and are helpful and seem nice and well-meaning! But you seem to have have made this entire forum your soapbox, where you answer every single post with not one reply but often a dozen or more—in this post alone you answered 20 times instead of just once or twice. Any chance you could limit posts so that you aren’t hogging the conversation? Maybe reply once, and then only again if someone addresses your point? Moderators maybe have a chat with stevecym about how these forums work, or hire him to do a column in a separate section?
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
lukar:
first, let me say, something has happened here as i have gotten older and i have realized a few things that others have realized – that being that there is a lack talent going into the trades and I have also realized that even i will not be around in 10 years (climbing ladders i mean). there is an entire wealth of experience that is disappearing and is not being replaced or it is being replaced by people who just do not care.
I just read the posts i put on here and let me say something, in addition to getting some likes, i was able to look at the photos he posted and advise him on what looked good and what did not. that was two or three posts. in two more posts i told everyone how caulking should be applied and look. is there anyone reading this now who actually knows this and has applied caulking like i have and can put it into words? i bet the OP appreciates my time (he offered to buy me a beer).
sometimes i diverge and talk about something from a historical perspective; that’s important because all trades people should know the history of why th ey are doing something and many people do not and it leads to issues later.
I have been on here for years. i have watched people make mistakes with their houses that a professional would never make usually because they are not realistic in what it takes to get a job done (usually money). and then we get someone like the OP come on here and pay someone a decent rate to do a job and he gets taken advantage of and i just put my professional opinion on here as a contractor and he can use that if goes back to those who did that work. i might have taken this thread over, but read what i wrote and i think all the way around, what i have said is pertinent and comes from a place few others reading this have experienced.
go read what i said to the person having an issue with getting a gas hook up. they want to use propane as a stop gap measure. but who reading this would know that you can not get propane deliveries in the city? and only because i wanted to heat my shop with it? who knows propane sinks to the basement and can ignite when the boiler kicks on but me or some chemist or fireman? and who walked into an appliance store on LI to buy a tank to use in their house, but me? anybody else here? this is dangerous stuff.
i had a lot to say about caulking. and i came on and said something to the OP on another post he had because he is trying to figure out how to find talent. but look at the post on stairs, i said what i had to say and stopped as i know less about it.
i’ll wait and see that others say. but i generally do not speak unless i know a lot about it and i can tell you i have been in this a long time now and have seen it a lot of different ways from other people on here.
by the way, i enjoy writing and used to work as a technical writer in the paper industry traveling around the upper midwest to mills and writing process manuals. yes, i can tell you how paper is made from pulping to finishing. and your suggestion that they consider paying me to write something, once i get paid to write, i hate it.
i will count the likes your comment gets later.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
and lukar, with the person who is looking for hinges, i went down to my shop and tried to see if i have any that size. others are suggesting that person try house of antique hardware which i know does not carry these because i have been there, but i had my hands down there looking. did anyone else do that this morning?
daveinbedstuy | 5 years and 10 months ago
I just epoxied and caulked my sills here in Bucks County. Not hard to do it correctly. [Thumbnail](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:BAon:thumbnail.jpeg.jpg)
MDR | 5 years and 10 months ago
Lurker, maybe Steve should write an article or blog or do some feature on Brownstoner. Although some of his answers are too long he does seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience. It would be better than the guys who renovate one brownstone and think they are experts.
Lurker | 5 years and 10 months ago
Hey stevecym. Just to reiterate—you provide valuable insight. You have experience and laudable motivations. But this forum isn’t a publishing platform, and alos it will disappear one day and your essay-length posts will disappear into the wind. So how about it Cate–why not see if Stevecym will handle questions in a designated column and make his advice more visible and useful. He could make long-form responses to forum queries.