Feedback on architect estimates and architects that charge flat rate/lower percentage?
We have been meeting with architects to renovate a 2200 sq ft brownstone we are purchasing. We initially had a contractor come and give us a rough estimate before we put in a bid and they estimate $150-200K. I’ve met with 2 architects and they are now estimating $400-500K. The house needs a new kitchen and bathroom (both in the same area), create a master bath (on the floor above but directly above the kitchen), knock down 2 non-load bearing walls, new electric and change out an oil heater to gas. There is a lot of original detailing that we would like to keep/restore. We have a very good idea what we want the house to look like as far as the layout of rooms and bathrooms. I have two questions: Does the 400-500K estimate seem more accurate and 2) Do I need an high end architect that is charging an hourly rate when we have a good idea what we want to do with the house? I have never been through the renovation process but wondering if there are more reasonably priced but quality architects. Thanks for any help! This process is so overwhelming!
psrookie
in Architecture 12 years and 3 months ago
7
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7 replies
backeast | 12 years and 3 months ago
I’m a homeowner going through a gut renovation, so really only have one experience to draw from…that being said, I’d guess the architects’ cost estimate is more accurate. The contractor likely isn’t taking into account the cost of architects’ services, structural engineer, mechanical engineer, etc (if you need these – not sure from what you are describing) and then there are also all the materials – all the tile, the flooring, the cabinets, the countertop, the appliances, the plumbing fixtures, the doors, the molding, etc etc. You don’t say whether the contractor’s number includes this. Also if you are renovating it for yourself, it’s very likely that you are going to spend more money than if you were renovating it for tenants. We met with architects who charged a flat fee and those who charged a percentage of the project, and ended up going with a firm that charges a %. We’ve been extremely happy with the process so far. Another thing to consider is how “full-service” you want the process to be, and how much time/energy you have to be involved. Do you want to go and buy all the tile yourself, or spec it in the GC contract and have your GC take care of it? there are a million little things like this….anyhow good luck to you! All I can say is, it will end up costing more than you think, sooner or later!
rodriguezstudio | 12 years and 3 months ago
Many good comments above. It comes down to quality of materials, and what is included-or “who pays for what”. A “high end” architect need not necessarily charge you fees on an hourly basis. What you need is an architect that will help you translate your vision into design documents that will allow you to get accurate pricing (and permitting). The contractors you talked to may have a comlpletely different view of what you want, hence the low price. Its not that that they are being deceitful, its just that with no drawings and specifications to go from, they can only assume what you mean by “inexpensive kitchen cabinets” etc.The scope and specifications need to be hashed out so that everybody (you and the GC) can see what is required and agree on the costs etc. We do most of our projects as a lump sum fee, we just estimate how much time it will take based on past work- and I feel that we do fairly high end work as well as inventive work which looks good but is cost effective (I am biased!) I would be happy to talk to you about your renovation and your budget. www.rodriguezstudio.com info@rodriguezstudio.com 212-217-1535, happy new year!
fawn | 12 years and 3 months ago
The architects’ estimates seems more accurate– for the reasons Brucef mentions. The major price jump here isn’t all architect fee, it’s the many items that the architect is considering that the contractor is not. (For example, is the contractor adding in the actual cost of cabinets, counters, tiles and bath fixtures for your 2 new bathrooms and kitchen, or just his cost of installation?)
firstmediation | 12 years and 3 months ago
I am neither a contractor nor an architect, just a humble homeowner. I recently used the matching services available on Sweeten, a site advertising on Brownstoner, to find both an architect and a contractor for a kitchen renovation in my condo. I was delighted with the service and the options it allowed me in making a decision about how to move ahead.
curated | 12 years and 3 months ago
If you have a good idea of what you want the house and layouts to look like then what you need is an architect who would charge a flat fee for drawings and a good designer who can achieve your concept within a set budget. Your initial quote of 150-200k sounds low yet 500k sounds high. Obviously this all depends on finishes but it sounds like you should be able to get this project done between 300-400k including architects/expediting. We’d be glad to refer some architects offline. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/curated
brucef | 12 years and 3 months ago
A couple of your seemingly modest changes unfortunately drive up the cost of your job. So although the contractor bid does seem low, I think some of the difference is apples and oranges. My guess on the contractor portion is 20% too low, but what makes up the lion’s share of the architect’s estimate which sounds accurate, is the items you are omitting that he is picking up. Example, when the contractor priced your kitchen, you may have told him you would buy the appliances you would use. Or maybe he included low cost appliances. This example is not important, what is important is that who pays for what, and that is where the architect’s estimate is more accurate. Tearing down two non-loadbearing walls is a very small job for a contractor. however for the architect it is a lot of work. Not structurally, as I assume you are correct about the bearing. Bear in mind that the architect designs the plan and drawings. You must still pay an expeditor to negotiate with the DOB, a non-trivial expense and process. I am an owner and contractor, and I know what it would cost me to do this. Construction labor not so much. Fixtures and “imperial entanglements”, I might be able to do this job for myself for 300K, but I can lean on vendors I use all the time. Retail, trim the features that trigger the greatest expense, and you will be alright for $400K. Your worries regarding hourly,high end,etc are red herrings. Find an architect you can feel comfortable with, get a price including or not including expediting, and ask him how to reduce your costs. Typically the things that run up the tab are items that require additional professionals-structural or mechanical engineers, asbestos, chimney inspection, sprinklers, etc. Good luck.
architensions | 12 years and 3 months ago
My name is Alessandro Orsini, principal of Architensions, I can offer you a walk-through in your property and give you my opinion by the moment we have recently completed several similiar renovations in Brooklyn. Visit our Brownstoner profile and website www.architensions.com Prior to open my own firm I have been working for Steven Holl Architects acquiring a great experience on residential projects. Not necessariliy a “high end” architect wold charge hourly. And more than a high end architect you need a great designer that will interpret your ideas and make them cost effective.
contacts:
info@architensions.com
ph. 917 438 6831