architect fees

Hi all, Tried to add to this Q to an existing thread but the new system doesn’t seem to want to allow is, so am starting a new thread — sorry! …just received a proposal from an architect for a 3200 SF “half gut” reno of a bstone in Harlem (new plumbing, electric, new kitchen and 2 new baths, but keeping floors, windows, etc.) and I’m really confused as to his pricing. I see lots of discussion here about flat fee, hourly fee, or percentage of construction…but what I got is somewhere in between — “architectural fees” of 17K for survey and design development, but “TBD” for construction docs and construction admin; then hourly fee for structural engineering, then $135.hr for structural engineering, and $8250 for mechanical engineering. Doesn’t include fees for permits, etc. Am so confused! Our contractor bids for the work (not inc. materials) are coming in around $90K – $100K, inc. installing new electric, plumbing, etc — is is possible the overall architect fees could cost close to half the contractor fees? Or are we being taken for a ride? Also, is $8500 for an expediter reasonable? Seems crazy high to me, but I’m new to this… Help?! Thanks! e

empathie00

in Architecture 12 years and 11 months ago

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talock | 12 years and 10 months ago

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To the original poster – as i’ve mentioned to others on this forum, it makes best sense to hold off on getting contractor bids until you’ve hired an architect and established a design. your architect SHOULD be versed enough in construction to help you outline a starting Total Project budget (which should include everything required for you to pay out to complete the job, fees included). This is important since the architect’s fee is (in one way or another) based on your budget. I’ve found it helps my clients GREATLY to only have to think about the single, total project cost number as in the end, that’s what you are paying and it won’t be as confusing for you or feel like fees are being swept under the rug. This budgeting is part of the architects basic services as outlined in AIA contracts, also outlined is the requirement to update the budget at the end of each design phase to make sure it’s still on track. If this is done, while there still may be small change orders for unforseen conditions or changes you make, they will be greatly minimized. That said, you should come to the table knowing how much you are willing to spend in total and communicate it clearly to your architect – we can’t operate effectively in the dark. If your budget for construction is in the range you specified, the architect has quoted you an EXTREMELY high fee. Based on what you’ve said, it will be upwards of 25% of construction costs once Construction Documents and Construction Admin are added in. As mentioned, the expediting also seems very high. For an Alteration Type 2 (no change of use), it should be around $2000\. As far as the consultants bids, it is not uncommon for outside consultants (structural and mechanical engineers in this case) to bill in different methods; keep in mind, the architect doesn’t have control over how the consultants bill, BUT she/he should be instructing them to make sure it is clear and, if hourly, give an estimate of total cost/hours needed to complete the job. In all of this, keep in mind, you are hiring an agent for your interests when hiring an architect. This is the legal term used for our service. If you are uncomfortable, find someone else…there are a lot of excellent small firms in the city who can provide great service. Thanks, Timothy Lock, RA

Benchmark Projects | 12 years and 11 months ago

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If you are interested in a professional consultant to help you navigate the construction process you can contact me.

empathie00 | 12 years and 11 months ago

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Hmm, thanks very much all – intereting to read the different opinions. Architect and I are indeed meeting tomorrow to discuss in detail…and it is possible the GC estimate was too low…have 2 more GCs coming today and tomorrow, so that should help get a more reliable estimate, but there are just so many moving pieces and variables it’s so hard to sort through all of it as a total novice. We’re budgeting for up to double the contractor’s estimate (again, excluding materials which we’re purchasing on our own), but if it goes beyond that, we’ll be in trouble…at some point though SOMEONE is going to have to give is SOME idea of the true costs though, no? NYC never ceases to amaze me so I never say never, but if we have a thorough contract with all specs detailed, etc. and don’t change it…can the GC actually end up charging us double, triple, quadruple, ten times the cost? And then what? Are we the only new yorkers without an unlimited, multi-billion reno fund?

architect66 | 12 years and 11 months ago

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Looks like you and your architect need to have a meeting of the minds…or you need to call on a few other architects for proposals.

Guest User | 12 years and 11 months ago

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17K plus con docs and const admin? I’m not charging enough.

jameskoster | 12 years and 11 months ago

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The fees this owner was quoted sound about right to me for the scope of work described (maybe not the expeditor, see below). I think the problem here may lay with the owner’s idea of the budget. 10 years ago, contractors were talking about $90K to $100K per floor to gut renovate a brownstone, but this project sounds like a bigger job than that. I would caution this owner that the GC’s bid may be his/her honest appraisal of the project’s needs, but that scope of work can’t be fully understood yet if no one has yet filled the architect’s role. I would say that one of our principal objectives as architects is to build the project on paper first so that interested contractors can accurately price the work — this is a big job, and a back-of-the-napkin sketch cannot cover it. As for the cost of expediting, simple Alt. type II’s can typically be filed for around $2K, but a C. of O. job (Alt. type I) is many times more complicated. I have seen expeditor fees range from $5K to $10K (!) for a C. of O.

jockdeboeraia | 12 years and 11 months ago

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It depends upon what you are looking for. I suppose he is giving you a complete set of drawings with interior elevations of every surface. There are other ways to do it. Maybe you are just looking for a permit set. Give me a call if you want to talk to another. Good luck.

Benchmark Projects | 12 years and 11 months ago

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I would have to agree with the previous post that this price seems too high. Remember It is just as important to interview several architects and let them know what your expectations are of them. Architects have several different ways in which they charge for their service.Some may be able to provide you with the most basic drawings, while others will include several site visits and project over-site. Based on your needs they can often package their services in a way to meet your needs

Silvermax | 12 years and 11 months ago

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For starters, have a sit-down with your architect and go over his/her fees with him/her so you know exactly what is being charged for what. It depends on whether you are keeping the architect throughout the duration of the construction — in which case, probably a percentage of the total construction cost (around 11 — 12 percent). Expeditor and Structural Engineer costs are usually separate but you should get a bid from them, based on design specs. Overall, sounds way high to me. But you do need to get clarification. When we did our reno, our architect put the expeditor and the Structural Eng. and the HVAC engineer out to bid — we got three bids for each of those and chose accordingly. Our reno was about three times your projected and soft costs were about 1/6th, incl. architect.