Homeowner's right with DOB?
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miamitileinc
in About Brooklyn 9 years and 6 months ago
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34 replies
workerb | 10 years and 2 months ago
Hello there, I’m in pretty serious trouble and at risk of losing my life savings in a home I’m invested in. There are issues with the DOB and we’re unable to secure permits, despite having already received “approval” for our job. I do not believe the professionals I’ve hired are working in my best interests, but the opacity of this process is insane. Does a homeowner have any rights at all? Can I attend a meeting with the borough manager or plan examiner? If not, could I attend along with a licensed professional? The architect of record here has completely stonewalled me and will not help at all. The frustrating part is that the errors that were made here were made by the DOB, but they refuse to correct them without going through the usual channels: PAA + PAA fee + plan examiners meeting. The architect refuses to do this and I am now at a total impasse. Do I have ANY options at all? Is there a way to file a complaint against the way the DOB has handled this situation? Appreciate any advice.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
Godspeed. We’re 6 months into waiting for our permits with no end in sight, DOB seems to just be making stuff up. If you learn how to file a complaint, please post here.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
Also, the DOB homeowners night is actually kind of helpful, although this sounds more severe than what they’re used to. You probably won’t be able to sit with an examiner, but they may be able to point you in the right direction: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/homeowners_and_tenants/homeowners_tenants_main.shtml
workerb | 10 years and 2 months ago
Thanks for the link, carmenf. Have you ever been? Do they actually let you talk about specific cases or is this just a general information session? At this point, our situation is so specific, our architect and expeditor called it “unprecedented” and the borough manager even said he’d never seen this before.
sqhaexgkh | 10 years and 2 months ago
Carmenf- what type of permits are you waiting that long for? I’m about to undergo a reno and pulling permits soon, that makes me nervous! Where in BK generally if you don’t mind answering.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
Workerb- We did go and it triggered a series of events that got us the email address to our plan examiner’s supervisor and eventually got us our first review after 4 months of radio silence from the DOB and our expeditor/architect. We didn’t get to sit with anyone about our case specifically, but we did get contact info. Hellobk- we’re pulling Alt-1s for a single family in BK (south slope area, but it really doesn’t make a difference as the examiners work for the entire borough.) We are adding an extension. There is at least one other house on our block (single fam wanting to add an extension) which has been waiting since November and has not even gotten a review yet. We finally got our first review about 110 days after our initial permit set was filed and we are now waiting for our second review (because nothing ever gets approved the first time for an alt-1.) Our neighbor, who is a GC, has been waiting for permits for a house on 2nd street since October. Meanwhile developers get permits for brand-new buildings within a month. There is no rhyme or reason, but I can say that everyone is complaining and there seems to be no architect or expeditor working on small projects that is NOT having this issue. Expeditors and architects will tell you that it’ll take 4-6 weeks when you’re interviewing them, but I would plan on 4-6 months if you’re doing an alt-1 or adding sqfootage. If we were only renovating the inside we’d probably have gotten permits months ago, but at this point we’re committed to the idea of the extension and the time to add it is now, not after we’ve been living there for years. As an aside, part of the issue is that Jan 1 a new set of DOB codes went into effect, which happens pretty rarely, so everyone (including us,) hustled to get in under the previous codes which meant a huge influx of permits being filed at the end of last year. They’re now backlogged, as the govt always is…
dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 2 months ago
“The architect refuses to do this” can you explain this further? Are you using a PE with a low flat fee that now can’t be bothered or a real architect that is taking a percentage of the deal?
boredatwork | 10 years and 2 months ago
At this point, I don’t think you have an option to take “action” against DOB. Have you tried reaching out to your local council member, community board or the public advocate? Once DOB has finished their work, I think you have the option of filing an Article 78, which says you plan to sue because their decision was arbitrary or contrary to precedent, etc. But you have to exhaust your administrative remedies before you can file an Article 78\. Talk to a real lawyer about that. Also, if you have a contract with your architect, it should spell out his/her obligations towards securing permits. When you say he/she refuses, is that because they have fulfilled their role as they see it, or is there another issue? Not sure what you mean by you have “approval,” but no permits. Can you explain?
mc33433 | 10 years and 2 months ago
Good luck. It took us 1.5 years to secure all of the permits we needed for a gut renovation and facade work. There were new questions and requirements from the DOB months into the process, and suddenly the necessity for things like neighboring tax records and lot pictures from the 1940s. It was stressful, but eventually we got there. In the end my husband did attend the meetings with the architect. I’ll also completely admit while some of the problems were the DOB, some of them were also our architect.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
Mc- we’re also waiting for our 40’s tax photos. I ordered them 5 weeks ago and still nothing… tried calling the archives and sending an email, no response. How long did it take you to get them? I went down there and printed out one of their crappy photo-copied versions but the DOB wants a “real” copy and there’s seemingly no way to get one other than to order it and cross your fingers…
Arkady | 10 years and 2 months ago
I wonder if it would be worth trying to get media interested in the problem since it seems to be universal. A letter to the Real Estate editor at the Times suggesting an in-depth series on it might get some action going & wouldn’t invite backlash against any individual if it described how pervasive it all is.
zag0r | 10 years and 2 months ago
Workerb how can you call this “unprecedented” and not divulge the details?? Everyone is curious now! It’s well known that DOB and Landmarks like to play their bureaucratic games but I also think that there’s some lack of understanding going on here. The job is either approved or not, if it’s approved a contractor can pull a permit. What is this unprecedented situation that prevents a permit from being pulled on an approved job? Perhaps the job is no longer approved? You say you still need a PAA which implies it’s not completely approved. Some of the terms in this discussion, related but distinct: ALT-1 describes a certain scope of work. A project is filed, the drawings are a filing set. A project is reviewed. If it’s not approved it may require revisions. If the project changes after it was approved it will need a post approval amendment which may be another review process. A permit is the piece of paper that says such and such contractor is working on this and that part of this project, it can only be obtained when the scope of work that relates to it is approved.
workerb | 10 years and 2 months ago
Sorry for the confusion! So, our architect was under contract. After a dispute, we – stupidly – released her from her contract, which we all agreed would only happen after we received our permits. Of course we weren’t that stupid as to let her out of contract before then. But it turns out we’re not as smart as we thought. When our job was “approved” we were naive and assumed that was the same as having permits in hand. So we let her out of the contract. Well as it turns out, we cannot pull the permits because there was a stupid clerical error made at the time the job was filed. The DOB clerk who entered it, checked the wrong box, so now we cannot pull permits as we do not have all of the required items for work that we are not doing. Our architect failed to notice this glaring error before. Apparently the only way to correct this is through the PAA process, even though it was entirely the DOBs fault and nothing more than a silly data entry error. When we asked our architect to file the PAA, it turned out that someone – presumably from within the DOB – had already filed one! We still have no idea who or why. Problem is, they filed it wrong. The change we need to make is backwards, so the PAA has been filed to change the TR1 to the same way it currently reads. The borough manager insists that the architect has to initiate an investigation into where this document came from (he says this has never happened before), and then put in a request to amend the PAA so it is corrected (meanwhile we have already paid the PAA fee), and THEN schedule a plan examiner meeting. She now refuses to take these steps, even though we are paying her hourly for all of this work after already having paid her in full for a job that was never completed. At one point, someone from the DOB called her to request she submit some documents, which she called “unprecedented.” The whole thing is a mess, all because some idiot desk jockey screwed up the simple job of data entry. The house is currently not livable, so we are now paying to carry 2 homes (rent on top of mortgage) ever since we closed more than a year ago. We cannot afford to do this any longer, so we’re really screwed if we don’t get this permit soon. I should mention, this house is in Queens.
sqhaexgkh | 10 years and 2 months ago
Carmen- that is so scary we are about to file an alt-1 (south slope too). Have you been able to do any work? Or is it just sitting in wait?
zag0r | 10 years and 2 months ago
It seems to me that your problem is with your discarded architect and not with the DOB so good luck with that. I won’t enumerate the number of reasons why it’s a bad idea to fire your architect once the project is approved or even once you have permits but I’ll say that if you do that for a real reason like incompetence by the architect, you will still need a new architect. Being asked to take over in these situations always raises red flags and it’s easy to find out the crux of the matter by a phone call or two.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
HelloB- we did a little bit of exploratory demo (pulling some walls down and such,) and we’ve done our soil borings and are starting our asbestos abatement and all that, but no you really can’t do anything. Also we’re going to be moving in at the end of the month while we await our permits because, well, we’ve already spent 6 months worth of rent waiting and we mind as well be living in the partially deconstructed house and saving the monthly rent. If it’s gonna be another 3 or 4 months, we’d rather be in the house than paying a mortgage with rent on top of it. Hindsight, we would have moved in right after we closed (in November)…
sqhaexgkh | 10 years and 2 months ago
Oh wow. Ok. Our house is uninhabitable so living in its is not an option. Wish me luck- and I wish you the same. Hope the process speeds up!
jcarch | 10 years and 2 months ago
To anyone reading this post and conversation, I highly recommend that anyone filing a project with the DOB do so through their Digital HUB, and not through the Brooklyn (or Queens) office. The Brooklyn office’s incompetence is staggering. We’ve literally had projects that have gone in circles for 5 months – it’s as if someone is playing an elaborate and cruel practical joke. We withdrew that project, refiled it from scratch with the HUB, and were approved in a couple of months. Personally I’m hoping never to set foot in the Brooklyn DOB again. The HUB isn’t perfect, but you can file documents electronically, rather than going in in person, the plan examiner does an initial review of the project with the architect before drawing up the objections (done via the web, to prevent bribery opportunities, and the plan examiner meetings after you get objections are 60 minutes long, compared to as little as 20 minutes in Brooklyn. I’ve only dealt with a few people over there, and while we’ve disagreed on some issues regarding the code or zoning, I’ve found them much more knowledgeable than the staff in Brooklyn. Even using the HUB, be prepared for things to take a long time. It used to take 8 weeks or so to get a typical Alt2 approved. Not I assume it will take 16\. Part of that is that the DOB could use more staff, part is the rush to file projects before the new code, and before the 421a tax abatement expires, but most of it is a mix of incompetence and simply not caring at all about serving home owners well. Sorry this is too late for the OP (I’m assuming they did not go through the HUB), but for everyone else, it may reduce the pain of filing from 1970’s Soviet levels of bureaucracy to standard NYC government levels of bureaucracy. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/jamescleary
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
FYI for all here- we filed through the HUB and still waited 100+ days for our first review. We were also told that basically no other office could assist us in-person or via phone because the HUB is “it’s own thing.” Too late now, but not sure if we would do the same again. They all suck, basically.