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Welcome back snappy and THL! We missed you both-
Legion- I don’t think any war is good- whether or not the outcome is good or bad, that fact that you had to fight a war to get that result automatically skews the outcome.
The other thing I think people do, when talking about war, is to forget just what war really means. It’s great to talk about democracy, freedom, ridding the world of oppression- but to fight a war because of ideology? Fighting a war to protect people, to stop people from destroying each other- fine. But we hardly protected anything or anyone in Vietnam. While you might technically claim we stopped the spread of communism in the Far East (arguable), we certainly didn’t create any democracies. But Biff is right. Its a horrible fact of war that civilians are killed in untold numbers- they call it “collateral damage”- a disgusting term if ever there was one. Tens of thousands of Iraqis civilians have died- more than Hussein ever killed on his own.
As for Iraq? Was it worth the price we- and the Iraqis paid? Tens of thousands dead, the infrastructure and economy wrecked, Thousands of US soldiers killed and wounded- for what reason? Literally, there was no real reason, despite all the justifications and excuses- there was no reason why we should be in Iraq. And if you want to really break your heart and understand that price, spend some time with soldiers from Walter Reed.
“I travel for a living to places far and wide (Japan, Malaysia, Norway, Italy and Israel recently, just to name a few). I have never sensed a hatred for the US government or Americans in any part of the free world.”
As a frequent global traveler, I have to agree with Benson. At the same time, every country has their own “conservatives” and “liberals” and “fundamentalists” and “nationalists,” some of whom have anti-U.S. feelings. But I’ve never experienced a genral sense of “you Americans suck” in the countries to which I’ve traveled.
Last time I was at his office. I wanted to ask him at what point in his life did he decide he wants to spend years looking in women’s hoohaas. I never got around to it. We got side tracked talking about anal sex.
I looked up the link you cite. It is, in a word, ludicrous. It is a demonstration of the rabid anti-Americanism that I mentioned.
Just a few examples:
-it states that the US engaged in naval bombing during the Iran-Iraq war. Completely false. No such bombing took place.
-It states that “The war in Korea (1950-53) was marked by widespread atrocities, both by North Korean/Chinese forces, and South Korean/U.S. forces.” Funny how it doesn’t mention that the Korean war was sponsored by the United Nations, not the US. In fact, there were many countries on the side of the allies. Indeed, the second biggest troop contingent for the allies was from Canada because, once again, it was a UN-sponsored war effort.
-It cites the two Libyan military planes shot down by the US in 1989 as an example of US military intervention. This is beyond ludicrous. Do they remember that Libya downed a civilian Pan Am flight at this time, killing hundreds of innocent people?
I respect pacifism, even though I don’t agree with it. I don’t respect anti-Americanism masquarading as pacificsm, which is what this web site is.
biff and MM,
I think that Benson and I object to the civilian death tally form of moral equivalence.
We do know that millions of innocents have died in war, there is no doubt.
The question is whether more would have died without US involvement.
MM brought up the two nukes on Japan, Truman’s argument was that it would bring about a quick ending and limit further casualties on both sides. That it did.
we have no way of peering into alternative universes where we could see how a lack of a United States would play out,
but we do have historical references;
Stalin murdered about 20 million of his own
Mao murdered about 30 million of his own
Pol Pot murdered about 2 million
I’m limiting my comments to 20th century and later since we can continue to go back in every nation’s history to find ample examples of the inequities of mankind towards his brother, without reason or justice.
heck, homo sapiens even wiped out a fellow species of homonid during the last ice age; the neanderthal, just for kicks.
Welcome back snappy and THL! We missed you both-
Legion- I don’t think any war is good- whether or not the outcome is good or bad, that fact that you had to fight a war to get that result automatically skews the outcome.
The other thing I think people do, when talking about war, is to forget just what war really means. It’s great to talk about democracy, freedom, ridding the world of oppression- but to fight a war because of ideology? Fighting a war to protect people, to stop people from destroying each other- fine. But we hardly protected anything or anyone in Vietnam. While you might technically claim we stopped the spread of communism in the Far East (arguable), we certainly didn’t create any democracies. But Biff is right. Its a horrible fact of war that civilians are killed in untold numbers- they call it “collateral damage”- a disgusting term if ever there was one. Tens of thousands of Iraqis civilians have died- more than Hussein ever killed on his own.
As for Iraq? Was it worth the price we- and the Iraqis paid? Tens of thousands dead, the infrastructure and economy wrecked, Thousands of US soldiers killed and wounded- for what reason? Literally, there was no real reason, despite all the justifications and excuses- there was no reason why we should be in Iraq. And if you want to really break your heart and understand that price, spend some time with soldiers from Walter Reed.
“where does the “sitting on the face” fit in there? ;)”
Legion, that was the last line.
“I travel for a living to places far and wide (Japan, Malaysia, Norway, Italy and Israel recently, just to name a few). I have never sensed a hatred for the US government or Americans in any part of the free world.”
As a frequent global traveler, I have to agree with Benson. At the same time, every country has their own “conservatives” and “liberals” and “fundamentalists” and “nationalists,” some of whom have anti-U.S. feelings. But I’ve never experienced a genral sense of “you Americans suck” in the countries to which I’ve traveled.
Have a good one THL!
Last time I was at his office. I wanted to ask him at what point in his life did he decide he wants to spend years looking in women’s hoohaas. I never got around to it. We got side tracked talking about anal sex.
All this war talk makes me wanna kill somebody 🙂
Biff;
I looked up the link you cite. It is, in a word, ludicrous. It is a demonstration of the rabid anti-Americanism that I mentioned.
Just a few examples:
-it states that the US engaged in naval bombing during the Iran-Iraq war. Completely false. No such bombing took place.
-It states that “The war in Korea (1950-53) was marked by widespread atrocities, both by North Korean/Chinese forces, and South Korean/U.S. forces.” Funny how it doesn’t mention that the Korean war was sponsored by the United Nations, not the US. In fact, there were many countries on the side of the allies. Indeed, the second biggest troop contingent for the allies was from Canada because, once again, it was a UN-sponsored war effort.
-It cites the two Libyan military planes shot down by the US in 1989 as an example of US military intervention. This is beyond ludicrous. Do they remember that Libya downed a civilian Pan Am flight at this time, killing hundreds of innocent people?
I respect pacifism, even though I don’t agree with it. I don’t respect anti-Americanism masquarading as pacificsm, which is what this web site is.
“Tybur, I have to agree with most of what you said.”
Montrose, lemme guess: everything but the last line? 😉
Posted by: jessibaby at March 9, 2010 11:16 AM
jessi,
where does the “sitting on the face” fit in there? 😉
biff and MM,
I think that Benson and I object to the civilian death tally form of moral equivalence.
We do know that millions of innocents have died in war, there is no doubt.
The question is whether more would have died without US involvement.
MM brought up the two nukes on Japan, Truman’s argument was that it would bring about a quick ending and limit further casualties on both sides. That it did.
we have no way of peering into alternative universes where we could see how a lack of a United States would play out,
but we do have historical references;
Stalin murdered about 20 million of his own
Mao murdered about 30 million of his own
Pol Pot murdered about 2 million
I’m limiting my comments to 20th century and later since we can continue to go back in every nation’s history to find ample examples of the inequities of mankind towards his brother, without reason or justice.
heck, homo sapiens even wiped out a fellow species of homonid during the last ice age; the neanderthal, just for kicks.