Register to leave a comment, or log in if you already have an account
montrose morris,
How can I take you seriously when you start your argument by saying that I am drinking some sort of Kool-aid? I mean I like to have a fruit punch once in a while but your implication that I am amongst the likes of Jim Jones followers is clearly disproven by my previous posts.
like I told bxgrl, you also seem to equate a white majority as something necessarily bad, I do not. It is the historical legacy of this nation and may change in the future according to demographic projections. I take things at face value, my experience in the Republican party is as I have stated, one of inclusion and shared beliefs in conservative values.
Bxgrl’s derisive comments against Clarence Thomas for instance could rightfully be labeled racist in themselves, in that she (as a white woman) seeks to define his views and his experience through the eyes of other people of color (which she is not). In other words she not only presumes to speak for other black people in condemning him and his views for not being liberal but also defining how he should be voting on the Supreme Court and implying that this man who has strong religious convictions and arose from poverty and the historical legacy of racism, should somehow be beholden to a white liberal establishment. Bxgrl reduces this accomplished individual of color to nothing but a puppet on a string, why? Because he is a conservative Christian who follows his beliefs, of course.
montrose, your implication that I am somehow preaching down to the minorities in my own community is again, presumptous. I have stated that I continue to work in Health Physican Shortage Areas of NYC. As I have all my career. I have never abandoned my community but have always sought to continue aiding those in need. And I have done plenty of that over the years both in time and money. Futhermore, I strongly believe that the single best thing one can do for one’s community is to set a positive example and continue that example with one’s family as I continue to do.
But this isn’t about me, It is about resetting the background and default idea amongst many that because a person has conservative views they must automatically be wacked out.
Once again allow me to point out the facts as I have used them to systematically counter your original assertion that the Republicans stand for racism, violence and naziism. You already agree that the Republicans were THE civil rights party up until the 1960’s, so let’s move on to more recent events
-first off, those swastika banners you have heard about on your liberal blogs, that showed up at town hall meetings. Turns out that those banners were being carried by Lyndon Larouche supporters (Larouche is a well known left wing outsider who has repeatedly sought the Democratic party presidential nomination.
-next, about Nixon’s southern strategy. This is his “notorious” southern strategy as stated by Patrick Buchanan his speech writer at the time;
“…we would build our Republican Party on a foundation of states rights, human rights, small government and a strong national defense, and leave it to the party of Maddox, Mahoney and Wallace to squeeze the last ounces of political juice out of the rotting fruit of racial injustice.”
hardly a racial strategy of division, wouldn’t you say?
-Nixon (who was a Quaker) voted for the civil rights act of 1957. JFK voted against Eisenhower’s (R) civil rights act of 1957.
-Nixon raised civil rights enforcement budget 800 percent.doubled the budget for black colleges, appointed more blacks to federal posts than any president before, adopted the Philadephia Plan mandating quotas for blacks in unions and ffor black scholars in colleges and universities, increased small business loans to minorities 1,000 percent, rased the share of Southern schools that were desegregated from 10% to 70% during his presidency.
hardly the acts of a racist, wouldn’t you say?
whan I say you are reaching too far back by naming George Lincoln Rockwell as some kind of representative of Republicans is clearly true. I named Lincoln as a starting point for Republicans for he was the first Republican president and the greatest of all presidents. George Lincoln Rockwell is an obscure right wing figure who died in the 1960’s and is of little consequence in serious political discussion. Shall I name the left wing nut jobs through history beginning with John Wilkes Booth who was a disgruntled southern democrat? Or how about Squeeky Fromme who might just get out of prison now and was a leftest follower of Charles Manson who tried to assassinate President Ford? or how about Lee Harvey Oswald, a member of the communist party, he actually went down in history as a leftist by killing JFK.
Let’s leave the fringe just that, and get to the meat of the matter. Again, your assertion that we Republicans are a bunch of racists, violence prone extremists.
You go on to make a generalization that the Republicans must be out of touch since their membership amongst minorities is disproportionately low. I see this more as indicator of the success of Democratic pandering than anything else. Even still, 10% of 300 million would come out to 9 million Republican/Conservative leaning minorities. (estimating that Republicans only get 10% of the minority vote on any given election, and that’s only a conservative estimate, in 1972 Nixon got 20% of the black vote).
you seem to equate a white majority as something bad, I don’t and I’m not even white. It is what it is, we live in this experiment called the United States and take the chips as they fall. yet throughout our history, minorities have risen to the top of society and prospered in this great nation. I don’t see the opportunities given to all people who come here as a bad thing, with great opportunity goes great reward and at times great risk. This is life. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
Legion, you have truly drunk the kool-aide. I don’t care if you want to be a Republican. If you are African-American, or a minority, I happen to think more of us SHOULD be Republicans. Get in there and shake up the pot! Anything to avoid watching that sea of white faces with a couple of prominant raisins in the cream of wheat every four years at the Republican Convention or at political rallies. It’s embarrassing to the country to have the world see one major political party with a rainbow of ethnicities and the other as white as a polka dancing convention in Fargo, South Dakota. To proclaim that they are the party of inclusion, in the face of such exclusion, is remarkable. It really doesn’t matter that there are a few prominant minority party members. The fact that you can name them all means there is certainly a looonnnggg way to go towards being a true party of the people, there.
Regarding health care, there is nothing worse than those who have succeeded, and come from little, preaching to those who haven’t been able to do so. That goes for people who become doctors, captains of industry, or successfully stop drinking, lose weight, or stop gambling. Everyone’s road is not the same, everyone’s ability to achieve is not yours. How about a little understanding that for way too many people, health insurance is not an option, and too many people need to spend their meager resources on the everyday necessities of putting a roof over their head, and food and clothing in and on their families, while they pray they don’t get sick. I agree, more care and detail is needed in Obama’s program to address tort reform, and a few other points, nothing is perfect, but doing nothing is worse. No one deserves to die because they chose to pay rent instead of health insurance.
benson- first of all you take montrose’s statement personally which you have no reason to do. secondly, fundamentalism has been defined by extremism because fundamentalists hold rigid points of view and they want others to follow their precepts because they are completely convinced only they are right. they are not tolerant by nature- and as kind and decent as your in laws may be, it doesn’t stop them from condemning those who believe differently to hell, or trying to impose their viewpoints and politics on the rest of us. And whether or not your in laws are good, decent people, there are plenty of other fundamentalist who are not. Don’t condemn MM for your state of denial.
As for giving intolerant speech a free pass, I notice no one commented on your racist jab about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when dibs made a statement about churches, politics and tax exempt status. It was racist to mention those 2 particular Black leaders when it had nothing to do with the conversation. There- I’ve now revoked your free intolerant speech pass.
Benson, for the last time, give me a break. I know plenty of fundamentalists, probably more than you do. Most of them are lovely people who would give you the coat off their back, and the bread off their table if you needed it. However, the nature of any fundamentalist belief is that your belief is the only correct belief, and everyone else is going to hell. There is no middle ground there. If you sincerely believe that your boat is the only one that is going to float, and everyone else is either a potential soul to be saved, or already damned, then the way you treat people and the way you operate in the world does not generally lend itself to true equality or fairness. I’m sorry, it doesn’t. I will agree with you, all fundamentalists are not extremists, BUT, all religious extremists are fundamentalists, and they all scare me. Again, my opinion, my take on it, based on years of experience.
It’s funny how you speak of intolerance, yet only bring up Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as examples of religious people with political agendas. What about the reverends Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Huckabee, and many, many others on the right, all of whom have made a shambles of the separation of church and state, far worse than Jackson and Sharpton. Why just the black guys? I could easily make the case that you have an intolerant racist agenda, but having met you and enjoyed your company, I’d like to think that isn’t so. If you find that hateful and abhorrent, and unfair, then think how I feel when you keep going on about my “intolerant hateful speech.” I think it’s time to agree to disagree about fundamentalism, and move on. I have ample reasons to feel as I do, and you have reasons to disagree. Fine. Let’s leave it at that.
“You proclaim that the Republican party of old is dead and gone, when I just listed a group of prominent minority Republicans who are here and NOW!” -legion
You have badly misunderstood not only what I said, but you badly misunderstand the party you seem so proud to belong to. The GOP today does not stand for the principles it used to and they proved that in the 60’s when they stood with the White South (Nixon’s Southern Strategy)and fought civil rights, feminism and the “counter-culture.”
—————————
“We are the big tent party, we are made up of whites, blacks, hispanics, asians and all other groups. “- legion-
Legion- The GOP is 2% Latino,b1% Black, and has one Asian elected official. there is not one single African-American GOP member of Congress (out of 219 or 220); nor any black GOP Governors (out of 22). There are only 4 Republican Latinos in Congress. What Big Tent Party? Michael Steele was not the RNC’s first choice and in fact he is greatly disliked. Clarence Thomas has yet to have a single idea of his own or write an opinion that showed any independent thought. The GOP is also the party of David Dukes and that 19 year old White Supremacist who was elected and it raised such protests they had to refuse to seat him.
——————–
Sure, you can mention Pelosi and Olberman. At least Pelosi knows more about Russia than what she can see from Alaska, and Olberman isn’t allowing Holocaust deniers air time on his show.
——————————–
“To summarily state that we are the party of George Lincoln Rockwell is reaching back way too much and way too far. ” -legion
And yet, here you are reaching back over a hundred years to claim the party of Lincoln. George Lincoln rockwell is far more recent.
Hold on a second. You cite A. Lincoln as being relevant & then take bxgrl to task for Rockwell? Who’s reaching too far back?
You equate Palin & Pelosi? C’mon, guys, get real.
Your strong prejuidice against fundamentalists, bordering on hateful speech and intolerance, speaks for itself. My in-laws are fundamentalists. I do not share their views on religion, and at times it has strained my marriage. However, they are good, decent people, and I take offense at your intolerant, hateful statement that “Just as today’s fundamentalist Christianity is NOT the movement begun by Jesus, who would be appalled by the venal, self-serving, bigoted, often murderous behavior that goes on in His name.” I challenge you to come and meet them, look them in the eye and make that statement. Make it to a real live person, not rant about a bogeyman on the internet.
You and Bxgrl should learn the difference between fundamentalism and extremism.
It is amazing to me how there are some sensitivities on many issues on this board, while such intolerant speech is given a free pass, except for a few cranks like me.
montrose morris,
How can I take you seriously when you start your argument by saying that I am drinking some sort of Kool-aid? I mean I like to have a fruit punch once in a while but your implication that I am amongst the likes of Jim Jones followers is clearly disproven by my previous posts.
like I told bxgrl, you also seem to equate a white majority as something necessarily bad, I do not. It is the historical legacy of this nation and may change in the future according to demographic projections. I take things at face value, my experience in the Republican party is as I have stated, one of inclusion and shared beliefs in conservative values.
Bxgrl’s derisive comments against Clarence Thomas for instance could rightfully be labeled racist in themselves, in that she (as a white woman) seeks to define his views and his experience through the eyes of other people of color (which she is not). In other words she not only presumes to speak for other black people in condemning him and his views for not being liberal but also defining how he should be voting on the Supreme Court and implying that this man who has strong religious convictions and arose from poverty and the historical legacy of racism, should somehow be beholden to a white liberal establishment. Bxgrl reduces this accomplished individual of color to nothing but a puppet on a string, why? Because he is a conservative Christian who follows his beliefs, of course.
montrose, your implication that I am somehow preaching down to the minorities in my own community is again, presumptous. I have stated that I continue to work in Health Physican Shortage Areas of NYC. As I have all my career. I have never abandoned my community but have always sought to continue aiding those in need. And I have done plenty of that over the years both in time and money. Futhermore, I strongly believe that the single best thing one can do for one’s community is to set a positive example and continue that example with one’s family as I continue to do.
But this isn’t about me, It is about resetting the background and default idea amongst many that because a person has conservative views they must automatically be wacked out.
Now, I’ll take my orange kool-aid with ice.
bxgrl,
Once again allow me to point out the facts as I have used them to systematically counter your original assertion that the Republicans stand for racism, violence and naziism. You already agree that the Republicans were THE civil rights party up until the 1960’s, so let’s move on to more recent events
-first off, those swastika banners you have heard about on your liberal blogs, that showed up at town hall meetings. Turns out that those banners were being carried by Lyndon Larouche supporters (Larouche is a well known left wing outsider who has repeatedly sought the Democratic party presidential nomination.
-next, about Nixon’s southern strategy. This is his “notorious” southern strategy as stated by Patrick Buchanan his speech writer at the time;
“…we would build our Republican Party on a foundation of states rights, human rights, small government and a strong national defense, and leave it to the party of Maddox, Mahoney and Wallace to squeeze the last ounces of political juice out of the rotting fruit of racial injustice.”
hardly a racial strategy of division, wouldn’t you say?
-Nixon (who was a Quaker) voted for the civil rights act of 1957. JFK voted against Eisenhower’s (R) civil rights act of 1957.
-Nixon raised civil rights enforcement budget 800 percent.doubled the budget for black colleges, appointed more blacks to federal posts than any president before, adopted the Philadephia Plan mandating quotas for blacks in unions and ffor black scholars in colleges and universities, increased small business loans to minorities 1,000 percent, rased the share of Southern schools that were desegregated from 10% to 70% during his presidency.
hardly the acts of a racist, wouldn’t you say?
whan I say you are reaching too far back by naming George Lincoln Rockwell as some kind of representative of Republicans is clearly true. I named Lincoln as a starting point for Republicans for he was the first Republican president and the greatest of all presidents. George Lincoln Rockwell is an obscure right wing figure who died in the 1960’s and is of little consequence in serious political discussion. Shall I name the left wing nut jobs through history beginning with John Wilkes Booth who was a disgruntled southern democrat? Or how about Squeeky Fromme who might just get out of prison now and was a leftest follower of Charles Manson who tried to assassinate President Ford? or how about Lee Harvey Oswald, a member of the communist party, he actually went down in history as a leftist by killing JFK.
Let’s leave the fringe just that, and get to the meat of the matter. Again, your assertion that we Republicans are a bunch of racists, violence prone extremists.
You go on to make a generalization that the Republicans must be out of touch since their membership amongst minorities is disproportionately low. I see this more as indicator of the success of Democratic pandering than anything else. Even still, 10% of 300 million would come out to 9 million Republican/Conservative leaning minorities. (estimating that Republicans only get 10% of the minority vote on any given election, and that’s only a conservative estimate, in 1972 Nixon got 20% of the black vote).
you seem to equate a white majority as something bad, I don’t and I’m not even white. It is what it is, we live in this experiment called the United States and take the chips as they fall. yet throughout our history, minorities have risen to the top of society and prospered in this great nation. I don’t see the opportunities given to all people who come here as a bad thing, with great opportunity goes great reward and at times great risk. This is life. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
Legion, you have truly drunk the kool-aide. I don’t care if you want to be a Republican. If you are African-American, or a minority, I happen to think more of us SHOULD be Republicans. Get in there and shake up the pot! Anything to avoid watching that sea of white faces with a couple of prominant raisins in the cream of wheat every four years at the Republican Convention or at political rallies. It’s embarrassing to the country to have the world see one major political party with a rainbow of ethnicities and the other as white as a polka dancing convention in Fargo, South Dakota. To proclaim that they are the party of inclusion, in the face of such exclusion, is remarkable. It really doesn’t matter that there are a few prominant minority party members. The fact that you can name them all means there is certainly a looonnnggg way to go towards being a true party of the people, there.
Regarding health care, there is nothing worse than those who have succeeded, and come from little, preaching to those who haven’t been able to do so. That goes for people who become doctors, captains of industry, or successfully stop drinking, lose weight, or stop gambling. Everyone’s road is not the same, everyone’s ability to achieve is not yours. How about a little understanding that for way too many people, health insurance is not an option, and too many people need to spend their meager resources on the everyday necessities of putting a roof over their head, and food and clothing in and on their families, while they pray they don’t get sick. I agree, more care and detail is needed in Obama’s program to address tort reform, and a few other points, nothing is perfect, but doing nothing is worse. No one deserves to die because they chose to pay rent instead of health insurance.
benson- first of all you take montrose’s statement personally which you have no reason to do. secondly, fundamentalism has been defined by extremism because fundamentalists hold rigid points of view and they want others to follow their precepts because they are completely convinced only they are right. they are not tolerant by nature- and as kind and decent as your in laws may be, it doesn’t stop them from condemning those who believe differently to hell, or trying to impose their viewpoints and politics on the rest of us. And whether or not your in laws are good, decent people, there are plenty of other fundamentalist who are not. Don’t condemn MM for your state of denial.
As for giving intolerant speech a free pass, I notice no one commented on your racist jab about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when dibs made a statement about churches, politics and tax exempt status. It was racist to mention those 2 particular Black leaders when it had nothing to do with the conversation. There- I’ve now revoked your free intolerant speech pass.
Benson, for the last time, give me a break. I know plenty of fundamentalists, probably more than you do. Most of them are lovely people who would give you the coat off their back, and the bread off their table if you needed it. However, the nature of any fundamentalist belief is that your belief is the only correct belief, and everyone else is going to hell. There is no middle ground there. If you sincerely believe that your boat is the only one that is going to float, and everyone else is either a potential soul to be saved, or already damned, then the way you treat people and the way you operate in the world does not generally lend itself to true equality or fairness. I’m sorry, it doesn’t. I will agree with you, all fundamentalists are not extremists, BUT, all religious extremists are fundamentalists, and they all scare me. Again, my opinion, my take on it, based on years of experience.
It’s funny how you speak of intolerance, yet only bring up Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as examples of religious people with political agendas. What about the reverends Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Huckabee, and many, many others on the right, all of whom have made a shambles of the separation of church and state, far worse than Jackson and Sharpton. Why just the black guys? I could easily make the case that you have an intolerant racist agenda, but having met you and enjoyed your company, I’d like to think that isn’t so. If you find that hateful and abhorrent, and unfair, then think how I feel when you keep going on about my “intolerant hateful speech.” I think it’s time to agree to disagree about fundamentalism, and move on. I have ample reasons to feel as I do, and you have reasons to disagree. Fine. Let’s leave it at that.
“You proclaim that the Republican party of old is dead and gone, when I just listed a group of prominent minority Republicans who are here and NOW!” -legion
You have badly misunderstood not only what I said, but you badly misunderstand the party you seem so proud to belong to. The GOP today does not stand for the principles it used to and they proved that in the 60’s when they stood with the White South (Nixon’s Southern Strategy)and fought civil rights, feminism and the “counter-culture.”
—————————
“We are the big tent party, we are made up of whites, blacks, hispanics, asians and all other groups. “- legion-
Legion- The GOP is 2% Latino,b1% Black, and has one Asian elected official. there is not one single African-American GOP member of Congress (out of 219 or 220); nor any black GOP Governors (out of 22). There are only 4 Republican Latinos in Congress. What Big Tent Party? Michael Steele was not the RNC’s first choice and in fact he is greatly disliked. Clarence Thomas has yet to have a single idea of his own or write an opinion that showed any independent thought. The GOP is also the party of David Dukes and that 19 year old White Supremacist who was elected and it raised such protests they had to refuse to seat him.
——————–
Sure, you can mention Pelosi and Olberman. At least Pelosi knows more about Russia than what she can see from Alaska, and Olberman isn’t allowing Holocaust deniers air time on his show.
——————————–
“To summarily state that we are the party of George Lincoln Rockwell is reaching back way too much and way too far. ” -legion
And yet, here you are reaching back over a hundred years to claim the party of Lincoln. George Lincoln rockwell is far more recent.
Hold on a second. You cite A. Lincoln as being relevant & then take bxgrl to task for Rockwell? Who’s reaching too far back?
You equate Palin & Pelosi? C’mon, guys, get real.
Montrose;
Your strong prejuidice against fundamentalists, bordering on hateful speech and intolerance, speaks for itself. My in-laws are fundamentalists. I do not share their views on religion, and at times it has strained my marriage. However, they are good, decent people, and I take offense at your intolerant, hateful statement that “Just as today’s fundamentalist Christianity is NOT the movement begun by Jesus, who would be appalled by the venal, self-serving, bigoted, often murderous behavior that goes on in His name.” I challenge you to come and meet them, look them in the eye and make that statement. Make it to a real live person, not rant about a bogeyman on the internet.
You and Bxgrl should learn the difference between fundamentalism and extremism.
It is amazing to me how there are some sensitivities on many issues on this board, while such intolerant speech is given a free pass, except for a few cranks like me.
G’night, Snappy. Sleep tight!!!!