Open-concept remorse?
We’re renovating (not gutting) a 2-family brownstone (20×55) that has 2 identical floor-through units, and we are really struggling to decide which, if any, walls to remove. Both units are 5 rooms deep (the middle one being the bathroom w/airshaft). Both units still have the original small kitchens in the back left of each floor, right next to a bedroom, and with the front two rooms of each unit being used as a connected living/dining area. Our architect’s first round of schematic drawings show a completely blown out back half of the unit, which keeps the kitchen in its current location, but essentially removes all of the walls to create a very open plan kitchen/kitchen island, dining, living space (and the bedrooms have been moved to the front).
I know it’s the trend these days to remove all the walls, and I understand that light is at a premium in these long brownstones, but having grown up in a house with many rooms, I am concerned that we will regret losing the distinction between different spaces; the feeling of leaving the kitchen and retiring to a living room a fter dinner; the ability to slam a door in anger, or just occupy different parts of the house. Not to mention removing walls means losing all the original detail of door frames, molding, plaster walls, etc. Most of all, I do not want this to feel like a modern condo when we’re done.
I am curious to hear experiences from those who have chosen to either: 1) keep more/most walls and distinct rooms vs. 2) remove lots of walls and create an open plan space. Has anyone had open-concept remorse?
I feel like we are going against the grain in not tearing all the walls down, so I am looking for perspectives/solidarity/encouragement that we can create a warm, light, functional space while still keeping walls (unless we can’t?).
bbrc
in Renovation 5 years and 5 months ago
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BKALLDAY | 5 years and 5 months ago
I think you should go both with your gut and marry in a bit of what your architect or contractor might recommend. I also think you should consider which exposure you have. You may be getting all day light and removing every last wall might not be necessary. I think you should consider who your tenants might be; are you considering young professionals, students or families? I believe there is a way to honor the history of the house and stay true to what you feel is right but still open up archways and maybe remove a wall or two that is non-load bearing to get the things your house needs (more storage, a bigger bathroom or kitchen or a bedroom that can host a king sized bed and side tables). Lastly think of the more important things like the mechanicals, what may happen removing so many walls and soundproofing, HVAC, etc. I am a fan of open and airy spaces but too many Reno’s look like padded cells or blank white boxes. Find the happy medium.
helen40
in Renovation 5 years and 5 months ago
Maybe a bit late to this thread, but here are my two cents and recommendation:
We renovated an owner’s triplex over a garden rental in a 20′ x 45′ house in 2001 after living in the house for 6 years. The layout we lived with for the 6 years was eat-in kitchen in the south-facing rear (leading to a deck) and large front parlor separated from the rear by pocket doors. A small powder room was off the kitchen in the rear corner of the house.
This was not a workable layout as far as we were concerned as the front parlor was too large and an awkward shape for a living room (long and skinny) and not large enough for a living room/dining room combo (which we dont like, anyway).
Our architect shared with us multiple potential layouts and we chose to relocate the kitchen to the middle of the house. The kitchen is “separated” from new dining room at the front of the house by a high counter parallel to the front and rear of the house. The counter sits three+ and ends to allow passage from the DR to the kitchen. The sink and dishwasher are below the high counter; one wa ll houses the oven and fridge; the other is all cabinet and counter.
We kept a hallway that runs from the entry to the rear of the parlor, which now houses a full house width living room. We used the space in the wall that separates the hall from the kitchen to run all new utilities and CAC. And we got to keep almost all of the original detail. We did move the entrance from the hall to the new kitchen towards the front of the house which required that we recreate all of that trim, but that was really no big deal.
We love this set up, which served us well with school-age children and now, with them grown and (mostly) out of the house. The rear facing window and door to the deck flood the house with light for much of the year. We can close the pocket doors and have one group cooking and dining while another is in the living room. If you are interested, I can try to scan and post architectural sketches, but they may be too big for my puny scanner.
Good luck.
Rick | 5 years and 5 months ago
Open kitchen in the back of the parlor floor with a deck to the yard is the best way to go in my opinion . The kitchen is the heart of the house and you will spend most of your time there. Here’s a pic of my kitchen dining room with deck. [Unnamed-3](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:dvai:unnamed3.jpg.jpg) [Unnamed-4](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:lofm:unnamed4.jpg.jpg)
CarmenR | 5 years and 5 months ago
@wonderdnow see below- this isn’t exactly what we ended up with dimension wise (kitchen ended up being a bit bigger, stairs moved some for additional head clearance, removed the closet by the powder room, etc) but this is the basic layout. Back of the house where the kitchen is located is south-facing and we have three big windows and a glass door (but we didn’t do the floor-to-ceiling window thing.) Lots of light. Livingroom gets less bc we have a covered porch but still gets decent light during the day.
If that image doesn’t work, go here: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/66/18/f866185c3bd5e2782ef7daed059c2070.jpg
[F866185c3bd5e2782ef7daed059c2070](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:kS6s:f866185c3bd5e2782ef7daed059c2070.jpg.jpg)
halvzbljopqijek | 5 years and 5 months ago
We have a similar set up. 20ft wife house with kitchen on the parlor floor in the rear. We did not remove the wall dividing the living space from the stair hallway, and so there is a double pocket door dividing the dinning/ living space from the kitchen on one side and a single pocket door dividing the kitchen from the stair hallway.
If facing the house, the range, fridge and main cabinet wall run along the left side of the house, with an island running parallel to that with sink, dishwasher, etc. if you are standing in the middle of the parlor floor you can see the entire length of the house, but the working area of the kitchen is slightly tucked around the corner to create a bit of division. Two large widows and one large glass door on the rear barrel negate the need to move the kitchen forward in the house to get more light from the front windows
No bathroom on the parlor floor (our pref., but again everyone is different). Our powder room is in the center of the house on the garden, with another full bath in the rear extension.
bbrc
in Renovation 5 years and 5 months ago
@CarmenR, that’s a very interesting layout suggestion we hadn’t considered (island oriented that way, half wall, powder room), though I am not sure I’m picturing it correctly. Is there any chance you have a sketch of the floorplan handy that you’d be willing to share? Would love to see how you’ve managed to get both light and separation! That sounds like a winner…
CarmenR | 5 years and 5 months ago
At 20′ wide, you can actually have a kitchen in the back and have it be somewhat of a separate room because you have the width to include a wall. I think the fully open floorplans are an ok use of space when you have a narrow building (even 18′) but at 20′ you can put a partial wall around the kitchen, still preserve enough space for light to come through, and maybe even have a powder room and also room for way more cabinets, which is one of my primary problems with open floorplan.
We did similar to the above (we’re 21′ wide) and our kitchen island is parallel to the rear of the house. We built a half-wall to separate the kitchen from the livingroom and I’m very happy we did- I don’t have to see a kitchen mess if I don’t want to, and the kitchen feels like a different room even though we get light from it to the middle of the house. We’re only 46′ deep but the middle of the house could def get dark if the kitchen was completely walled off. We put a powder ro om on the other side of the half-wall (since the plumbing was already there) and it’s been a great layout for us.
brokelin | 5 years and 5 months ago
Having lived in a unit in a brownstone coop built originally as a 4-flat, with some similarities in the room layout you describe, I would say there are other decisions that need to be made first – as to where you want each room – before you start thinking about where, if, and how to open walls.
I like to sleep in the back – I do not like to sleep in the front, due to noise – I find the back much quieter. I also don’t like to sleep in the middle, as I want to be able to crack open a bedroom window when I want, and I require a window AC in a bedroom where there is not central AC.
My kitchen was originally in the back, in the the narrow 1-window room, next to a wider two-window room that some used as a dining room, and may have been originally designed to be the dining room – I saw similar brownstone apartments with this original layout, and I didn’t like it. I don’t like a narrow room closed kitchen with a window at one end in the back (though I previously rented a brownstone apartment where the kitchen had been built in the narrow room in the front – I liked that one because it was sunny – both these brownstones were on the same side of the street in my neighborhood, and were sunnier in the front than in the rear – it depends a lot on which way your street runs, which side of the street you are on, and if there are any buildings that obstruct sunlight – this will vary by building and neighborhood.) I like a sunny kitchen, if possible. I was glad previous owners of the place I bought had turned that back kitchen into a bedroom (or study) – it was my guest bedroom, with the larger room next to it my main bedroom. I like my bedrooms in back.
In my place, the kitchen had been moved to a middle room, in what was originally a narrow hall bedroom with an airshaft window – with the wall removed so that the kitchen was open to the central hallway that ran through the unit. I did not end up loving the kitchen there, as I sorely missed having natural light in the kitchen. Had I done further renovation to the place, I would have moved the kitchen to be across the back of the second room back from the front (which room was connected by original pocket doors to the front living room.) I would have placed the stove along the back wall of that room, and added a long island (or peninsula) with the sink and DW in it parallel to the back stove wall – I seem to spend a lot of time at the sink preparing food and cleaning up, so I want a view from there – the view into the sunny living room and out the front bay windows would have suited me. There would have been room in the room for a dining table (or seating area if I chose to put the dining table in part of the front living room) on the other side of the sink counter in that room. Though the sunlight didn’t quite reach all the way to the back part of the second room back, you can add a lot of lights to a kitchen – what I mainly need is a view out when preparing food and cleaning up – I hated having the kitchen sink along a wall with no view, with no window to see out of even if I turned my head.
Yes, having access to the out of doors in a kitchen is nice (I was not on the first floor, so that wasn’t possible in my place in any case), but I need sunlight and a view out when working at the sink more. To some cooks, having a over-stove fan that circulates to the outside is necessary – you can accomplish this with the kitchen in the back if you prefer it there – but also possibly with a central kitchen if there are airshafts built into the center of the building. (There may be windows into airshafts that have been closed off over the years, as there are in many of these buildings.)
I also am not a fan of taking down walls. Note that my ideal kitchen would have added an island or peninsula across at room that would likely still be used as a dining room – it would not have involved taking down any walls. I agree with whomever said that creating, or widening, openings in walls (without or without French or pocket doors) is the way to go in brownstones – after all, that is how many (including mine) were originally built to separate rooms – mine had multiple oak double pocket doors, and probably some French doors elsewhere (long gone) originally. You get some openness with wide doorways, with still having the sense of separate but connected rooms (whether you install french or pocket doors that you can actually close off the doorways with, or not.) Note that double french doors need a wide swing, and will severely limit your furniture placement – so it is worth it to install pocket doors (they can be almost all glass, have glass in the upper part, or have panes like French doors) on wider double openings – french (or solid) swinging doors are better used singly, and best where they rest against a perpendicular wall when opened – otherwise, you give up too much space that you could otherwise use for furniture.
In brownstones, I prize sunlight and views toward windows, so to me the middle part of brownstone apartment units is best used for (1) bathrooms (I love windows in baths, but will give up windows in the bathroom first before any other room); and (2) clothes closets and other storage closets – I’d rather put clothes closets in the center rather than have them in the bedrooms, even if they aren’t connected to the bedrooms – it is the best use of the dark middle space of brownstones. I have no problem taking down some walls to reconfigure the middle of the building to suit me, but would not do so in the main rooms with windows in the front or back. Then, if there are still middle rooms that don’t have windows in them to the back or front, I like those rooms to have double pocket doors, or french doors, to the rooms that do have windows. That is how my place was built originally. Of course, if you are creating a dedicated bedroom in the middle, you may want to skip that large doorway – but then do what these rooms did originally, and add a working glass transom window over the door to that bedroom, at least.
You don’t need to take down walls in major rooms at all to reconfigure your space to suit. Just decide first where you want to sleep, cook and eat. Remember that you do not need to have the seemingly-requisite counter island with stools – they don’t fit well into many brownstones (unless you like that sort of thing – I much prefer eating at tables.) Some spaces will lend themselves to having a separate dining room if you like that – though I find light to be more important for deciding where to dine – far more important to me than whether I have a separate dining room (or dining nook or area), or not. The second room back (behind the living room) was my dining room, and I found that I never sat there to eat, as I prefer to eat in direct light. (I also never ate in my dining nook that was behind the sunny kitchen in my previous place – much nicer to eat in the sunny living room next to the kitchen.). In my next place after I sold the coop, I placed my dining table smack in front of my front windows, and I never regretted having to carry my plates and serving dishes through the living room to get to that table, as I loved the light and views there.)
An architect may be of some help to you in deciding on your final layout – but decide where you want to sleep, cook and eat first, as those are personal decisions that vary depending on who is deciding. Also, don’t forget to take into consideration which end of your house is sunniest when making those decisions. And, if you will have a study or office area, consider the windows and light there, too – I used to have desks along the long wall of narrow brownstone rooms – I also discovered that I never sat at the desk in such a configuration – not until I moved the desk to where I would sit facing OUT the window did I ever want to work at my desk (my desks in these layouts were never up against the window, rather I’d leave some feet free on the other side of the desk so that I could access the window to open and close it.)
dpwtgnmgwbhvy | 5 years and 5 months ago
We had similar dilemma when we went about renovating our home. Feeling light and airy was a main consideration. However we also wanted to keep the original details of the house.
We preserved details such as the stairway arch, rails, balusters wainscoting, victorian fretwork, pier mirror, fire place mantel etc. And since we din’t have any ceiling medallion , we broke the walls down and stripped the floor (We were thankful for it, as we realized some of the old beams were rotten and in long run would have costed us dearly).
And painstakingly added each one of the items back. In places we couldn’t preserve (base molding etc), we recreated them as close to the original.
As for the open floor living, please don’t venture that direction. Any brownstone that has the details stripped looks like a box. When you pinch or add walls or arch or fretwork and then open up the space, it creates visual interest and make the space larger. Door could limit the natural light in the middle on the brownstone, So keeping arches, walls with panels and without doors provide good options to still keep the house light and airy.
Open floor concept is so dated at this point. I haven’t seen them in current high end brownstones renovations in the market. Its mostly the developers that are into making a quick buck or two that do these boxed open floor living concepts at this point.
Good Luck!
chemosphere | 5 years and 5 months ago
i like having the kitchen in the back because I like direct sunlight in the kitchen. Seperation also means somebody can take a nap in the living room or watch a movie without messing with person in the kitchen.
halvzbljopqijek | 5 years and 5 months ago
Seems to me that this conversation just highlights the need for @wonderednow to take an honest assessment of how they will use the space on a daily basis. For example – putting the kitchen in the middle would be a nightmare for someone who makes as much bbq as I do (who wants to carry a 10lb brisket or a 50lb pig through your living room to get to and from the smokers). Similarly, if young children aren’t in the cards, the ability to monitor the children from across a wider swath of the house doesn’t have the same appeal (the Times article’s reference to listening to Peppa Pig criminally undersells how much of a benefit some parents find this to be). No set up works for everyone.
I am firmly of the opinion that there is no intrinsically correct or incorrect way to design your living space. The only question is does it truly serve your needs, enable you to live the way you want to, and meet your long term investment goals (to the extent you view the property as part of that portfolio). Hopefully these perspectives help you figure out what is right for you.
panda10 | 5 years and 5 months ago
So many people seem against open plan. But I really think the negatives are way overblown. You can gain another foot of ceiling height in most cases. New beams and inspection of the other beams are a good thing. The original layout of all townhouses were for families living in the early 1900’s. If you designed a house today with a clean piece of paper, I doubt anyone would carve up the main living floor the way most townhouses are carved up now. You get to put the kitchen where you want, add a parlor floor bathroom. Stop assuming you need to put the kitchen in the back. The back is the widest part of the house (the front has the entry/foyer and the middle has the stairs). If you put the living room in the back, the layout really is amazing and way more private and leads directly to the backyard. The pro original layout folks seem to bash the open layout instead of talking about how having 5 railroad rooms with windows 50 feet apart is amazing. Yes- It’s expensive and if it’s not worth it to you then don’t spend the money. But if you have the cash, I would consider it. You only do demo once. A good engineer can make it happen safely.
stoopsitter | 5 years and 5 months ago
I just want to add that, quite apart from the expense of removing walls, there are often broader consequences when the wall coming out is load bearing. There is very likely to be damage to plaster walls and tile floors above. We made the mistake of laying the tile in the bathroom one floor up too soon after the beam and lally post were installed below. The house hadn’t fully settled and the floor cracked.
stoopsitter | 5 years and 5 months ago
Funnily enough, I’ve always felt that the traditional brownstone parlor floor layout was quite ahead of its time in terms of incorporating “open plan” elements. Am thinking specifically of the front and rear parlors, separated by pocket doors or an archway. We removed the wall between our rear parlor and the butler’s pantry (the small side room) to create a combined kitchen/dining room. When we’re entertaining, I occasionally long for a private kitchen but otherwise we love this set up. I would hate to feel isolated in the kitchen. My ideal layout would be to have the kitchen in a bright rear extension. In terms of removing the front parlor side wall, I’ve seen this be very transformative in narrow houses with conventional stair halls. If there’s a central staircase, it’s not really necessary. One very important issue if you’re tempted to open up the parlor to the hall: make sure your vestibule is extremely well insulated with draft free doors beyond the outer doo r/s. If you have the space, consider expanding the vestibule. It’s so important to keep the parlor floor draft free in winter. Especially since the high ceilings already make keeping this space warm a challenge.
bbrc
in Renovation 5 years and 5 months ago
Thank you all so much – these responses are giving me life. Keep ’em coming. I appreciate both sides of the coin, and that a space ultimately needs to work for the way its occupants live. At the same time, I am spectacularly pleased to hear so many positive stories about keeping rooms and walls, and feel a renewed confidence and excitement about preserving these in my own house. The NYTimes article that Cate shared (thank you!) has a particularly brilliant comment thread that makes a strong case for walls.
We will still need to solve some questions around flow and light and air (would people want to weigh-in if I shared the floor plans?), and now feel like I have the ammunition to invite our GC and architect to help us get creative without losing the rooms!
montrosemorris | 5 years and 5 months ago
I’m all for preserving as much of the original layout and original detail as possible. I think my biggest pet peeve is tearing down the hall walls that create a foyer and hallway, so one enters directly into the living room with a full width living room with the stair on one side. Some of the house’s best woodwork and casings are lost, and for what? Three feet of room space that you can’t really use, because the stairs are there, so you can’t put any substantial furniture there, anyway.
I also don’t get needing to see your kids every second, either. I know I sound like an old fart, but generations of us grew up playing in an adjacent room to where are parents were and we survived. If we were doing something that we needed a bit more supervision for, we did it in the kitchen at the kitchen table, while Mom was cooking. But I’m not telling anyone how to raise their kids, that’s just my opinion. Do what you have to do.
I understand, and have no problem getting rid of tiny rooms that aren’t being well utilized and opening up the space a bit. We live differently than 15 0 years ago when everyone had servants and they had their special spaces to work. But keep rooms! Keep the ability to close off a room. I think a good compromise can be to enlarge case openings, reuse and replicate the woodwork, perhaps add French doors, but have real rooms. Sooner or later, people are going to get tired of open plans, and we’ll be reading about people asking how to have walls and doors built again.
chemosphere | 5 years and 5 months ago
This sounds indentical to our house. We live on the first floor and use the middle room as a bedroom. Instead of opening the kitchen to the dining room we did a large cutout. The front two rooms are opened up to each other, creating one big living room, about 12×25. Now we have a kid and we might temporarily move the bedroom to the dining room and close up the cutout, and leave him in the middle room.
Lurker | 5 years and 5 months ago
We have a 20 x 55 house, did the reno where we mostly kept existing walls, and I regret that we didn’t open up the first two or middle two rooms—our place is 4 rooms deep. Also having a dining room separate from kitchen is really nice (I know that sounds posh but here we are). We got bum advice from an overzealous engineer and arch who insisted we would have had to cut all the joists to add steel beams everywhere and it turns out a neighbor did exact same reno and because joists already run width of house and many are sistered it is fine without.
Anyway, I think you want natural light and air in a kitchen, and placing it in the back of the house makes sense as otherwise your cooking smells and oils infiltrate all your living room furniture. If we did it over again we’d do 1/3rd at the back wiht kitchen and 2/3rds open with an open living room and dining room.
cate | 5 years and 5 months ago
If you’re interested in reading more about open vs. traditional floor plans, you might want to check out the book “House Thinking” by Winifred Gallagher, in which she makes the case for traditional floor plans. (As I recall, the chief points are are to do with sounds, smells, privacy, comfort, heating.) Also, here are a few stories about a backlash trend against the open plan trend: https://www.brownstoner.com/interiors-renovation/interior-design-trends-2016-dimensional-tile-pastel-kitchens/ and https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/realestate/im-over-open-concept-design.html