Garden Floor Reset -- Where To Start?

when i moved into my duplex (parlor and garden levels) last year, it was fully finished. the garden level and two full bathrooms, closets, mechanical/laundry room, one small room, one large room, and garden access. soon after moving in, we began to take in a lot of water from multiple points. over the last year, we have been stemming the tide. almost done with that. during the process, we had to remove ALL of the drywall and insulation because it was all moldy on the foundation side. LOTS of mold. now, it is essentially unfinished. we want to reconstruct. slightly different floor plan (large room into 2 smaller rooms), but no huge changes. the intended work includes removing the current slab, laying a vapor barrier, rigid polyiso 2″ insulation and pex for a radiant slab, and moving a few pipes to accommodate tubs and general streamlining, before pouring the new slab. then framing and finishing. what type of professional can make a serviceable drawing for permitting purposes? do i have to pay an architect thousands of dollars? i’ve been told that some expeditors have staff who can make drawings for this type of work. how essential is permitting? all feedback is welcome. THANKS!

workisfun

in Renovation 9 years and 10 months ago

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GreenThinker | 9 years and 10 months ago

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Technically, if you want to lower your cellar. And it just so happens it’ll be lower than the neighboring buildings foundation; you have to underpin their foundations at your expense. Happens with new developments all the time. As for your predicament, People do this type of work all the time without permits. Just because the city is involved doesn’t mean everything will be top notch workmenship and vice verse. Get a reputable contractor, and leave 50% of the payment until everything is finished.

carmenf | 9 years and 10 months ago

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Not sure about the DOB approval for just replacing a slab- we’re an alt1 so it’s basically a nightmare for a variety of reasons. I’m sure we could pursue “recourse” against the neighbor but it’s not worth it. Digging down the cellar as a “nice to have” anyway, and considering our 8″ thick party wall, I’m sure our neighbors will be in considerable pain for a few months while we renovate. It’s in our best interest to keep them happy unless it’s a deal-breaking kind of issue.

workisfun | 9 years and 10 months ago

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Yikes. Is replacing a slab one of those jobs that takes forever to get DOB approval? Carmenf-Do you have recourse against your neighbor limiting your own options?

carmenf | 9 years and 10 months ago

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we are not lowering our cellar but we were required to have soil borings in both the front of the house (where we are not lowering or replacing the slab) and the back of the house (where we are replacing the slab.) It’s good that we did, because we discovered that our neighbor dug down past his foundation wall when he (without permit, DIY) dug out his cellar a few years ago. We had plans to lower our cellar and have opted not to do that because of the substantial risk to his foundation and our party wall. The concrete that’s there now is basically holding up his (now lower) cellar. To me, it’s worth it to do it right. We’re not talking about a crappy paint job or replacing some door hardware- this is literally what your house sits on. Spend the money.

Lurker | 9 years and 10 months ago

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Many perfectly capable trades are more than happy to do work that should be permitted without permits and all the layers involved. And while they may think (or even know) exactly what they’re doing, they may not know what an engineer or architect would spec/what the city would require. The city constantly updates things and so while you’re replacing what was there, as soon as you start putting in new pipes and radiant heat and updating things, it snowballs quickly. The onus isn’t on contractors to “do what’s right” it’s on you to make sure they do, via permits and contracts and inspections. And that’s why there’s a whole, annoying, time-sucking, costly, redundant, frustrating official process. Well-intentioned people make big mistakes because they know better. And you end up paying for it. Addendum: we broke up our slab only to discover it was a “rat slab,” a mere inch or two of concrete. So when putting down a new one we had to dig down so that the floor didn’t rise to get the minimum 4″ thickness required without having too low of a ceiling to meet code. Plus the 2 inches of insulation below that. Plus putting down gravel and vapor barrier and tamping the dirt. So really they dug down a foot to put in 4 inches of concrete. It filled an entire 30 foot dumpster. And when you open up the concrete you will discover that your sewer main is almost certainly fractured somewhere and so you end up having to replace all of it, because a plumber won’t do just a small section as it all crumbles. And then that means putting in new traps and valves. And so on and so on. It’s a big F’in deal.

workisfun | 9 years and 10 months ago

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thanks. the masons i invited in to bid said i only needed underpinning if i was lowering the floor, which i’m not. would a reputable mason really waltz right into a job like this and start jackhammering without doing his own due-diligence to protect his workers and his business? so the test-pits would not already be part of the job? when i get an estimate, i assume that licensed and insured contractor is taking all necessary precautions. i know not all fly-by-night contractors do, but i’m avoiding them for work like this. thanks.

carmenf | 9 years and 10 months ago

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If you’re removing the old slab foundation, you’ll need to do all of this. The test pits are to see the makeup of the soil and to see how deep your neighbors foundations go, which will determine what kind of underpinnings you need. Better to be safe than sorry when it comes to the foundation of your entire building and those of your neighbors.

workisfun | 9 years and 10 months ago

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Is all of the above necessary even if I’m just restoring it to the way it was last year? No structural changes. Already have new and sufficient boiler. Not lowering floor. Electric is already in place. Bathrooms are in place – just changing showers to tubs. Thanks.

carmenf | 9 years and 10 months ago

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don’t forget your soil borings and testing… that’s another 5-7k.

Lurker | 9 years and 10 months ago

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If you do it the legal way, bluntly, you’re in for a long and winding road. FWIW I am an owner not an architect but I’ve been doing this myself. You would absolutely need to file, and involve not only an architect but likely an engineer. As soon as you break up that slab you have you no idea what’s underneath and could get lucky or not and have to put down new footings, underpinning of the foundation, new support columns, etc, along with the price of all that radiant (and potentially a new boiler, which could mean a new gas line… yada yada). For reference, I got a couple bids for 20k-ish to dig up and repour a slab that didn’t need underpinning, and that didn’t include permits. You also will need plumbing and electrical permits, asbestos inspection and/or abatement is common (but you may be lucky) and plans and permits and inspection for above add up. This is all to say what you describe isn’t a quickie contractor job, and for a typical 1000sf floor might run 150-200k or so if all done by the book. But it’s all do-able, and certainly worthwhile if you have means and patience.